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Old 07-30-2014, 11:43 PM   #11
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And please keep in mind that i'm not asking a serious question, but rather making a sarcastic overview of the system the way that it is. Either the system works, or it does not. One that is broken up into multiple parts with NICS being one, and in addition to that, the honesty of an un-convicted fugitive or someone that just escaped a mental hospital before information was ever submitted to the government, seems like a very inefficient system.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:51 PM   #12
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I will definitely give credit to a good number of people that have FFL's though, they are usually very good and can spot legitimate issues vs. nothing to be concerned about. I have seen them stare down people and talk sternly to people that look like they are making a straw sale, yet when I go in with my girlfriend and she is adamant about a certain gun and says she loves it and even says "you have to buy that for me", no one ever says anything when I do buy myself the one she pointed out, because they can tell the difference between a real straw sale and someone that is just being enthusiastic about a certain gun.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:11 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninjatoth View Post
I will definitely give credit to a good number of people that have FFL's though, they are usually very good and can spot legitimate issues vs. nothing to be concerned about. I have seen them stare down people and talk sternly to people that look like they are making a straw sale, yet when I go in with my girlfriend and she is adamant about a certain gun and says she loves it and even says "you have to buy that for me", no one ever says anything when I do buy myself the one she pointed out, because they can tell the difference between a real straw sale and someone that is just being enthusiastic about a certain gun.
until they change it, as long as the purchased gun can be legally owned by the person it was bought for, it's not a straw purchase. my wife can legally walk into a gun store and buy a gun herself. problem is, my wife hates to shop for anything! doesn't mean she can't buy a gun, she just hates shopping for one.

a straw purchase is usually when someone who can buy a gun, buys a gun for someone who is prohibited from buying or possessing a gun to begin with. most gun dealers who operate above board and legally can spot a straw sale pretty quickly. a reputable dealer isn't going to risk his license on a questionable sale for a few bucks. just isn't worth it in the long run.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:23 AM   #14
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until they change it, as long as the purchased gun can be legally owned by the person it was bought for, it's not a straw purchase.
Axxe- sorry- have to disagree. I CAN buy a gun that is a GIFT to someone else. But I cannot use THEIR money to buy a gun for them- even if they CAN legally own a gun. The question on the 4473 is "Are you the actual purchaser?"

If you give me money to buy for you, YOU are the actual purchaser.

If I buy a gun to GIVE to my neighbor to say thanks for cutting the grass all summer while I was in a cast, I AM the actual purchaser, even though the gun is going to someone else.

The Strawman Purchase thing can get really confusing. ATF has a bunch of training PPTs on it for FFL holders.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:31 AM   #15
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Actually a straw purchase would be anyone that buys a gun for someone else with the other persons money. It does not matter if the other is legal to own a gun or not. There was just recently a high profile news story about this. They charged the purchaser even though he bought it for another person that was legal to own. He was indeed charged. I don't remember if he was convicted or not.

What really matters is who's money it is. If I use my money to purchase a gun for someone else as a gift it is not a straw purchase. The person getting the gift is not the purchaser. The person paying for the gun is the purchaser. Of course you can not gift a firearm to a prohibited person. That is a crime in itself.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:44 AM   #16
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I would consider a straw sale as an example, person A gets the background check for that particular gun sale, then immediately transfers ownership of that gun he was cleared for to person B. Whether that is due to person B's qualification to own it, or whether it be to person B's laziness, it don't matter. If it was predetermined that person B was trying to go around a background check, that's a straw sale. "Trying to go around" is what it comes down to, I think in layman's terms.
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Old 07-31-2014, 01:08 AM   #17
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Axxe- sorry- have to disagree. I CAN buy a gun that is a GIFT to someone else. But I cannot use THEIR money to buy a gun for them- even if they CAN legally own a gun. The question on the 4473 is "Are you the actual purchaser?"

If you give me money to buy for you, YOU are the actual purchaser.

If I buy a gun to GIVE to my neighbor to say thanks for cutting the grass all summer while I was in a cast, I AM the actual purchaser, even though the gun is going to someone else.

The Strawman Purchase thing can get really confusing. ATF has a bunch of training PPTs on it for FFL holders.
exactly. sorry if my interpretation was misunderstood. and usually if someone is buying for someone who is prohibited from buying or possessing a gun to begin with, it's usually their money being used to buy it. not the person filling out the paperwork.

thanks for clarifying my statement on that. i should have gone a little further in explaining that, but you did for me.

and if i buy a gun, and decide to gift it, then yes, i am the actual buyer of the gun. i know that before i turned 18, my own father bought several guns for my brother and i and gave to us for Christmas and our birthdays.

of course some of the anti-gun liberal politicians would like this to change as well.
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Old 07-31-2014, 07:12 PM   #18
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The 5th Amendment: "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:50 PM   #19
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The 5th Amendment against self incrimination does not apply to purchasing a firearm.

You may have misunderstood what Self Incrimination and the 5th actually mean.

You may not be forced or compelled to "Incriminate" yourself in order to perform a "Required" act, like paying Taxes.

You may be required to waive your right to self incrimination to perform a voluntary act, like purchasing a firearm. No law requires that you buy a gun. If you choose to buy a gun, you may be required to truthfully answer the question on the form; and you may be prosecuted for answering untruthfully even if a truthful answer would incriminate you.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick1967 View Post
Actually a straw purchase would be anyone that buys a gun for someone else with the other persons money. It does not matter if the other is legal to own a gun or not. There was just recently a high profile news story about this. They charged the purchaser even though he bought it for another person that was legal to own. He was indeed charged. I don't remember if he was convicted or not.

What really matters is who's money it is. If I use my money to purchase a gun for someone else as a gift it is not a straw purchase. The person getting the gift is not the purchaser. The person paying for the gun is the purchaser. Of course you can not gift a firearm to a prohibited person. That is a crime in itself.
This was more than a "News" story it went all the way to the Supreme Court, in Abramski vs US.
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-1493_k5g1.pdf

The Supreme Court upheld the ATF's interpretation of a "Straw" purchase.
Money is not the only thing that is a factor in determining a "Straw" or a legal purchase, there is also "Intent", so says the Supreme Court.

The interpretation ATF has used since 1992 and which has now been confirmed by SCOTUS.

You're buying the gun for yourself (you're the actual buyer, No Straw) if --

A) You're buying the gun with the intention of giving it to someone as a gift.

B) You're buying the gun with the intention of keeping it, but later you decide to sell it.

C) You're buying the gun to sell, but you have no buyer. In this case you have to find a buyer and are taking a risk that you will be able to sell it to someone at a price acceptable to you.

But you are not the actually buyer (making it a straw purchase) if --

You've made prior arrangements with a particular person that you will buy the gun and then transfer it to him, and he

A) gives you the money up front

OR

B) agrees to reimburse you.

So if Obama says hay Harry I'm going to a gun show this Saturday, need anything? Dingy Harry says, sure, if you find a nice clean Dan Wesson CBOB in 10MM buy it for me, I will pay you back later. This is a straw even though no money has yet changed hands. Intent.
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