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Old 05-14-2010, 09:19 PM   #31
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Nowadays, it's the people with property who are owned, by a bank.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:27 PM   #32
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Originally it was "free, White, over 21 and a property owner"
No it wasn't.Show me any historical documentation that the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution said that.I dont even think I read that in the Articles of the Confederacy.

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Doesn't the fact that the Constitution has been amended several times to adapt to changing times justify some people refering to it as a "living document"? I thought that was the whole point of having amendments to it & having a judicial branch of the government to interpret it and the laws based on it.
The Constitution may be lawfully amended to change it.Thats the way it works.

Not misinterpreted by activists in black robes to get around it.

The 'living document' doctrine is what gave the anti-gunners the idea that the Second was a 'collective right' reserved for militias under government authority.

That was their 'modern interpretation'.Remember what that thinking gave us?

Can you say 'brady bill'?

That by itself should be enough to show you the inherent flaw,egregious mis-truths and intentional abuses of the meaning of the Constitution by what passes for 'modern interpretation of living document' hogwash.
Had there been no liars and activists making 'judgments' about the Second that in fact boldly contradict and violate it,the brady bill would have been seen for what it in fact is-a blatant violation of the Second Amendment.

Because there would have been no question as to the individual nature of the Second if it weren't for such clever manipulators.

The 'living document' doctrine is a lie,utilized by those who wish to expand government power for the sake of their agendas.

Its a proven lie-and the fact that it is a lie needs alot more 'air time' if you ask me.......
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:28 PM   #33
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Nowadays, it's the people with property who are owned, by a bank.
LOL.

Yep-another 'symptom' of the problems at hand......
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:31 PM   #34
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Doesn't the fact that the Constitution has been amended several times to adapt to changing times justify some people refering to it as a "living document"? I thought that was the whole point of having amendments to it & having a judicial branch of the government to interpret it and the laws based on it.
No, when they talk about a "living document" they refer to something that is always in a flux or state of change. Amendments are there to clarify or to bolster something that wasn't considered clear or at that time had little or no importance. The Constitution is the rock that this country was built upon, a "living document" would have been trying to build this country on quick sand. I forget which one, but it was one of the Founding Father who demanded a Bill of Rights to expressively state our rights, John Adams if memory serves me, wanted OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHTS written down for everyone to see. And remember the rights expressed within the Constitution via the Bill of Rights are the Rights given to all men from God. And what God gives us, no man can take away . . . Unless we let them.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:32 PM   #35
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Nowadays, it's the people with property who are owned, by a bank.
Sad but true.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:36 PM   #36
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No, when they talk about a "living document" they refer to something that is always in a flux or state of change. Amendments are there to clarify or to bolster something that wasn't considered clear or at that time had little or no importance. The Constitution is the rock that this country was built upon, a "living document" would have been trying to build this country on quick sand. I forget which one, but it was one of the Founding Father who demanded a Bill of Rights to expressively state our rights, John Adams if memory serves me, wanted OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHTS written down for everyone to see. And remember the rights expressed within the Constitution via the Bill of Rights are the Rights given to all men from God. And what God gives us, no man can take away . . . Unless we let them.
The Declaration of Independence is our bedrock-dont forget the period of the Articles of Confederacy-we've actually had two charters of government in line with the principles established by Jefferson in the Declaration.
In the Declaration,he established the need for government by the people,respecting the natural law and individual liberty-the most hallowed of our principles.

The "Father of the Bill of Rights" was George Mason and James Madison-

George Mason - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bill of Rights was insisted upon because of the increase in federal power that would come from ratifying the Constitution and replacing the Articles of Confederacy.
A very interesting perspective of liberty vs. government can be had when you read the Federalist and Anti Federalist papers.

Needless to say-the struggle for liberty has never ended,we can never rest our hopes on the Constitution,Bill of Rights or any other document-we must actively defend them ourselves.

"The ground of liberty is to be gained by inches, and we must be contented to secure what we can get from time to time and eternally press forward for what is yet to get. It takes time to persuade men to do even what is for their own good."
Thomas Jefferson

"The Price of Liberty is Eternal Vigilance"
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:45 PM   #37
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Nowadays, it's the people with property who are owned, by a bank.
"If we run into such [government] debts, as that we must be taxed in our meat and in our drink, in our necessaries and our comforts, in our labors and our amusements, for our callings and our creeds, as the people of England are, our people, like them, must come to labor sixteen hours in twenty-four, give the earnings of fifteen of these to the government for their debts and daily expenses, and the sixteenth being insufficient to afford us bread, we must live, as they now do, on oatmeal and potatoes, have no time to think, no means of calling the mismanagers to account; but be glad to obtain subsistence by hiring ourselves to rivet their chains on the necks of our fellow-suffers."
Thomas Jefferson

"The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered."
Thomas Jefferson


Thomas Jefferson also abhorred the idea of a central bank.

Read up on the Federal Reserve.

The way it came into being and the fact that it is NOT a government entity,but a PRIVATE CORPORATION that PROFITS its bankster owners,with no real congressional oversight-will blow your mind.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:45 PM   #38
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1. a person who is entitled to full political and civil rights.
2. historical a person who is not a slave or serf.

This is right out of Webster, notice there is no mention of color, the freeing of slaves happened later on in our history and the Constitution, no the people, at that time did not feel that Africans were on the same level as the Whites, considered subhuman. Our european ancestors left Europe because they were in essence serfs without a chance to become Freemen, by leaving europe they had at least a chance to be free.
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:56 PM   #39
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1. a person who is entitled to full political and civil rights.
2. historical a person who is not a slave or serf.

This is right out of Webster, notice there is no mention of color, the freeing of slaves happened later on in our history and the Constitution, no the people, at that time did not feel that Africans were on the same level as the Whites, considered subhuman. Our european ancestors left Europe because they were in essence serfs without a chance to become Freemen, by leaving europe they had at least a chance to be free.
But its not right out of the Constitution.Or any other document that formed our nation.
I'm not understanding where people think the Founders limited liberty to a monied,property owning white elite.

In fact,I know that to be the argument of detractors of this Republic,made to disparage and disgrace men like Jefferson and Sam Adams.An argument made by misguided college kids in Che Guevara shirts to justify why they think Marxism with all its butchery and social engineering is a better system of government than the Constitutional Republic.

Funny how these same 'intellectuals' then go on to espouse 'gun control'......

Did you know that of the men that starved with Washington at Valley Forge-some of them were *gasp* evil FELONS --convicts--,bearing arms to give people a nation so they could then turn around and enact 'gun control'?

One of the first people to die for America was a black man-Crispus Attucks.
Then some of the first 'gun control' laws passed in this nation were aimed at disarming blacks......

The 'prohibited persons' list that 'takes away' the inalienable right to keep and bear arms,is in fact part of the Gun Control Act of 1968-a law written in almost lock-step with the Wiemar/Nazi gun control laws of 1938.

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/origins-gun-control-act-1968-warning-long-26881/

They started out with that law claiming that they would not expand it past its original 'prohibited list',but once they got their foot in the door....now they want to include secret watch lists.
Could you imagine the mischief they could wreak by being able to deny people their right to arm themselves 'lawfully',by using secret lists?

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/bloomberg-deny-second-amendment-people-terror-watch-list-26840/

Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin would approve!

Thats the price we pay when we think its okay to let government operate outside its bounds.

One more time-

“He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.”
Thomas Paine
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Old 05-14-2010, 09:56 PM   #40
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Ok, on what date was the first signatures affixed to this historical document (no, not July 4th) and what time frame was involved before the last signature was added?
This document was not only proclaiming our independence from england but in essence was a declaration of war against the crown. A war that lasted 13 long years

The Price They Paid

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons in the revolutionary army, another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the revolutionary war. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners, men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Ellery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Morris and Livingston suffered similar fates.

Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot of what happened in the revolutionary war. We didn't just fight the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government! Perhaps you can now see why our founding fathers had a hatred for standing armies, and allowed through the second amendment for everyone to be armed.

Frankly, I can't read this without crying. Some of us take these liberties so much for granted. We shouldn't.
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