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Old 11-05-2012, 06:34 AM   #51
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Your whining about losing a right you didn't want in the first place. That makes no sense.

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Old 11-05-2012, 06:43 AM   #52
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If there is no law against OC then what law is it exactly that he's upholding? He's not enforcing any law he is just hassling you for what you have a legal right to do. Try sticking to the topic of OC.
Well since there is no such thing as legal OC in Texas, that is an easy one to answer. I am not an authority on the laws of other States, but many have laws against things like Disorderly Conduct, Menacing, Disturbing the Peace, etc. If one of those is broken by OCing, then the officer IS investiging a crime.

For the record, I believe that officers "hassling" the public for no reason should be disciplined in a proportionate manner.

AND for your information the topic is "Open Carry and the Police". Hmm, seems to me the police reaction to OC IS the topic, Mr. Smartypants.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:48 AM   #53
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I have a question for all of you who think it's ok for LEO's to stop people and ask for ID when they aren't breaking any laws. Suppose you went to baseball practice everyday and you had to bring your own bat. Now what would you do if everyday a cop stopped you and asked you for ID and why are you carrying that bat? How long would it take you to get tired of that? How long before you developed a bad attitude? How many times would it take before you bring a camera with you? You make assumptions that these guys just strapped on a gun and brought their camera with them just to screw with people. Just maybe they were tired of being screwed with for doing something that is perfectly legal. Land of the free my ass.
If you carry a bat every day, but no glove and people call because they are concerned you are up to no good with the bat. How long will it take for you to pull your head out and put the bat in a bat bag so pople will not call 911 every time they see you waling down the street with the bat?

Oh, but I have a Constitutional right to carry a bat! That MAY be so, but you are still a moron.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:34 AM   #54
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Here in NY, we do not have the right to OC. All pistol permit class instructers tell us to go for a CCW when we fill out the application. It has been like that since before my parents and I moved up here. Dad and I both have CCWs. The only time I have EVER seen a LEO "let it be" when someone is OCing is during hunting seasons, on in a gun shop. Even then, chances are good that he will ask to see you DL and your CCW. If I go one state over, to PA, there are no laws on the books forbiding OC. Yet there are also no laws allowing it either. That is why I have a non resident CCW for PA as well as my NY one. If I have to go to Erie or Pittsburg, I have my permit with me, and I keep my pistol concealed. I have a few people I shoot with over in Oil City who have been harrassed for OCing, and yes, if you walk down the street in most cities and towns in PA, and you are OCing, you will probably be charged with disturbing the peace. Even if the law staed that you can OC, if a civilian calls in and tells the dispatcher that there is a man outside with a gun, The responding LEO DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HE IS WALKING INTO UNTIL AFTER HE HAS YOUR INFORMATION. By refusing to show I.D. you make yourself suspect to him or her at that point. People who have nothing to hide will comply at that point. Those with something to hide generally will not.

Keep it concealed. It gives you a tactical advantage, and it may also keep you out of jail in adition to keeping your wallet a little thicker, if nothing else.

And to those that are complaining about being harassed for OCing by local LEOs and the state taking away the right to OC. If the public complains enough, the government, in the intrest of public safety, does have the right to outlaw any action that can be considered a threat to the safety of the public. Look into the town laws of the old west. The Earps, in their testimony regarding the shoot out in the alley adjacent to the O.K. Corral, stated that they put their revolvers in their pockets. Not in holsters on their belts. Carry laws have been around for far longer than some seem to realize.

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Old 11-05-2012, 07:56 AM   #55
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Michigan Open Carry strongly recommends anytime one open carries they have some sort of recorder going. After the Birmingham MI Open carry case, it really opened my eyes to the extend the PD would circle the wagons around their lying officer, who did it again a few weeks later, this time while it was being recorded. Luckily, the jury believed the witnesses over the LEO and sent the case packing.

I have a recorder on my phone that automatically streams to the web.
First of all Michigan Open Carry's only objective is to goad officers into a confrontation so they can file civil suits against LE. They say that they are pro law enforcement but they are not. And as for the whole open carry I believe that it is for shock and awe and has no tactical advantage. As a matter of fact it is more of a tactical disadvantage to show your hand to a would be bad guy.

As for the afore mentioned incident with the "lying" officer, the kid that was arrested was an idiot. You have an 18 or 19 year old kid walking down the sidewalk in an affluent down town area shopping center on a bright sunny afternoon with an M1 Garand slung over his shoulder. His statement to the media was that he wasn't breaking the law and didn't think he was going to cause a disturbance. Why would he think that carrying a fully loaded WWII combat rifle would attract attention. As i said, he's an idiot. I also believe that he comes from a family of attorneys. That should tell you something. I do not believe that he was charged carrying the gun but with breach of peace.

That is a prime example of Michigan Open Carry at work. That situation was initiated for one purpose, to goad LE into a confrontation and it did exactly that. These types of incidents do nothing to improve gun owners standing with the general non-gun owning community.

That's just my opinion.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:06 PM   #56
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Somehow some of you guys just seem to miss the point. If it's legal then what's the problem with doing it. WTF?



The point is attitude. A lot of guys who Open Carry are looking for a confrontation. They want their "Patrick Henry" moment. When you swagger around the mall with a gun on your hip daring somebody to give you some sh*t, you're not doing any gun rights cause much good.

Because legal or otherwise the reality is that we have to deal with that half of the population that doesn't like guns and doesn't understand why you feel the need to wear one in public. And as long as it's controversial it'll be confrontational.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #57
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probably they are just idiots who are trying to assert their rights so they can make a statement. keyword is idiot! these idiots are more about trying to show some LEO in a bad light and trying to drum up symphathy than truly concerned with gun owners rights. i see my best recourse for an officer who violates my rights is an attorney, not YouTube!
It makes far more sense from an overall point of view (for the open carry cause) to cooperate with police. Cops have every right to ask for an ID to ensure someone is not a convicted felon and carrying openly.

Police are our friends and the first folks we call when a crime is committed against us. If everyone that open carried would be polite, readily surrender ID, be found a law abiding citizen and allowed to go on their way police would not be forming bad opinions of law abiding open carry citizens.
I agree Axx, idiots fits the description.
POLICE ARE NOT THE ENEMY, CRIMINALS ARE!!!

As for open carry laws I'm torn. I like the idea of constitutional carry. The right to bear arms openly and unrestricted. On one hand I think it reduces crime. But on the other hand if (here we go again) business owners can stop folks from carrying they may get complaints from non gun carriers that make them want to put up no gun signs. Thus eliminate the crime reducing aspect. Then there is the tactical aspect. In IL (I think) a car of thugs pulled up next to a man open carrying and already had a weapon sticking out the window, demanded his firearm, and drove off. Also if you're open carrying you lose the tactical aspect of surprise.

IF I ever did open carry (and I probably wouldn't) I would feel need need to conceal a firearm in case I was disarmed. So what's the point.
Just my thoughts.
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Old 11-05-2012, 12:26 PM   #58
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It makes far more sense from an overall point of view (for the open carry cause) to cooperate with police. Cops have every right to ask for an ID to ensure someone is not a convicted felon and carrying openly.
No, they have NO right to stop a citizen for doing something that is completely legal. They legally can not ask you for an ID, or make any kind of stop for just walking down the road. And many states do not require that you carry ID at all times. Even when carrying a firearm, unless you have a CCW.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:45 PM   #59
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No, they have NO right to stop a citizen for doing something that is completely legal. They legally can not ask you for an ID, or make any kind of stop for just walking down the road. And many states do not require that you carry ID at all times. Even when carrying a firearm, unless you have a CCW.
You are 100% correct, LEOs do not have the right to stop and ID someone that is not suspected of committing a crime. They are, however, obligated to investigate a complaint made by a citizen who is concerned about the safety of there community. Lets face it, 2012 is very different then 1812 and when someone is walking down the street with a gun on their hip or slung over their shoulder it attracts attention. And the the positive kind. With all the school shootings, mall shootings drive by shoot gas and any other kind of shootings citizens have a legitimate concern when they see someone openly carrying a gun down a crowded street. So hey call the police and expect the officer to do his job and at the very least check the subject out. Now, if the individual is truly law abiding and just harmlessly exercising their rights there should be no problem with giving the officer the benefit of the doubt and being cooperative. The problem is that most incidents are involving people looking to have a confrontation with the LEO and that's the issue I have.

It kills me that our society instantly blames LEOs for infringing on their rights when the intentionally put themselves in situations that foster confrontations with the law. One last thought, what do you think would've happened if it was discovered that an officer had observed the shooter from the Colorado movie theater just before the attack but didn't stop him for fear of "VIOLATING" his Rights. Do you think he would have been applauded as a champion of justice.
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:55 PM   #60
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You are 100% correct, LEOs do not have the right to stop and ID someone that is not suspected of committing a crime. They are, however, obligated to investigate a complaint made by a citizen who is concerned about the safety of there community. Lets face it, 2012 is very different then 1812 and when someone is walking down the street with a gun on their hip or slung over their shoulder it attracts attention. And the the positive kind. With all the school shootings, mall shootings drive by shoot gas and any other kind of shootings citizens have a legitimate concern when they see someone openly carrying a gun down a crowded street. So hey call the police and expect the officer to do his job and at the very least check the subject out. Now, if the individual is truly law abiding and just harmlessly exercising their rights there should be no problem with giving the officer the benefit of the doubt and being cooperative. The problem is that most incidents are involving people looking to have a confrontation with the LEO and that's the issue I have.
And if the officer would be to walk up and say something to the effect of. "Excuse me Miss. We recieved a complaint that someone was carrying a gun in this area."

My response would be a very cordial. "Yes officer. I am legally openly carrying a firearm. Is there a problem?"

At that point it should go something like this. "No Miss. Thank you for your time."

But it does not go that way most of the time. In every instance that I have been stopped for OCing I was met with an instant authoritarian attitude from the cop.

Quote:
It kills me that our society instantly blames LEOs for infringing on their rights when the intentionally put themselves in situations that foster confrontations with the law. One last thought, what do you think would've happened if it was discovered that an officer had observed the shooter from the Colorado movie theater just before the attack but didn't stop him for fear of "VIOLATING" his Rights. Do you think he would have been applauded as a champion of justice.
I am sure that most everyone would agree that seeing someone OCing two pistols, a rifle, a shotgun, and a tactical vest would give PC to any cop that saw him whereas OCing a pistol while walking their dog does not.
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