Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com

Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/)
-   Legal and Activism (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/)
-   -   Okay, so straw purchases are illegal (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/okay-so-straw-purchases-illegal-86091/)

danf_fl 03-08-2013 09:49 PM

Okay, so straw purchases are illegal
 
I can understand "give and take" in negotiations.
The Democrats got some support on "Straw purchases"
http://news.yahoo.com/senate-panel-backs-crackdown-clandestine-gun-sales-010612683.html

But for some reason, I think this was kind of like giving a bottle to a baby.
"Shut the kid up" and we get some peace.

"Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States. Your lie does not even have to be made directly to an employee of the national government as long as it is "within the jurisdiction" of the ever expanding federal bureaucracy. Though the falsehood must be "material" this requirement is met if the statement has the "natural tendency to influence or [is] capable of influencing, the decision of the decisionmaking body to which it is addressed." United States v. Gaudin , 515 U.S. 506, 510 (1995). "
(source: http://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/how-to-avoid-going-to-jail-under-18-u-s-c-section-1001-for-lying.html )

So when completing the 4473 and you lie that you are the actual buyer, you commited a felony.

So what are the Democrats giving the legal gun owners for this "victory" they received?

1911love 03-09-2013 04:54 AM

I like the part of the yahoo article where the guy talks about Sandy Hook and how an AWB would have lessened the killing. Conn already has an AWB. WTF are these hoplophobes smoking!!!

Jpyle 03-09-2013 05:06 AM

Quote:

So when completing the 4473 and you lie that you are the actual buyer, you commited a felony.
True..but what if the end result of this negotiated compromise now makes the gifting or purchase of a gun as a gift a straw purchase and, therefore, a felony. As it now stands you can answer the 4473 question honestly and gift the gun to a family member...the new law may prohibit that by making the transfer itself the crime, not the response to a question. The devil is, as they say, in the details.

partdeux 03-09-2013 11:49 AM

If you can't transfer a weapon... it will have to be destroyed.

Jpyle 03-09-2013 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by partdeux (Post 1169537)
If you can't transfer a weapon... it will have to be destroyed.

What I meant to imply was that a transfer could not take place without a separate 4473 and NICS.

Flat Tire 03-09-2013 03:14 PM

It is hard to prove a straw purchase, anyone can just change their mind. But if all gun sales had to have a UBC then the straw purchase game would come to an end. Why would anyone put a gun in his/her own name and give it to someone that can't pass a UBC.

What do they do to someone that sells a gun to someone and then that gun is involved in a crime ? In Idaho I can sell a gun to anyone. It lies more in who is in possession of that gun. As a seller I am not required to check if someone is a criminal. If you can't have guns because of your criminal record and you have guns then you are a criminal, why go back to jail for just having a gun in possession ? I don't have a problem with UBC's for all gun sales.

Warrior1256 03-10-2013 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1911love (Post 1169384)
I like the part of the yahoo article where the guy talks about Sandy Hook and how an AWB would have lessened the killing. Conn already has an AWB. WTF are these hoplophobes smoking!!!

Your point is right on target, trying to talk logic to an anti is hopeless.

JimRau 03-10-2013 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danf_fl (Post 1168917)
I can understand "give and take" in negotiations.
The Democrats got some support on "Straw purchases"
http://news.yahoo.com/senate-panel-backs-crackdown-clandestine-gun-sales-010612683.html

But for some reason, I think this was kind of like giving a bottle to a baby.
"Shut the kid up" and we get some peace.

"Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States. Your lie does not even have to be made directly to an employee of the national government as long as it is "within the jurisdiction" of the ever expanding federal bureaucracy. Though the falsehood must be "material" this requirement is met if the statement has the "natural tendency to influence or [is] capable of influencing, the decision of the decisionmaking body to which it is addressed." United States v. Gaudin , 515 U.S. 506, 510 (1995). "
(source: http://corporate.findlaw.com/litigation-disputes/how-to-avoid-going-to-jail-under-18-u-s-c-section-1001-for-lying.html )

So when completing the 4473 and you lie that you are the actual buyer, you commited a felony.

So what are the Democrats giving the legal gun owners for this "victory" they received?

True, now can you show me anyone who has been convicted of this. I made two open and shut cases where know gang members (named suspects) used false ID's and stolen credit cards to buy more than 60 hand guns to take back to CA for gang use and the US Attorney REFUSED to file on them!!!:mad:

Tackleberry1 03-10-2013 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flat Tire (Post 1169739)
It is hard to prove a straw purchase, anyone can just change their mind. But if all gun sales had to have a UBC then the straw purchase game would come to an end. Why would anyone put a gun in his/her own name and give it to someone that can't pass a UBC.

What do they do to someone that sells a gun to someone and then that gun is involved in a crime ? In Idaho I can sell a gun to anyone. It lies more in who is in possession of that gun. As a seller I am not required to check if someone is a criminal. If you can't have guns because of your criminal record and you have guns then you are a criminal, why go back to jail for just having a gun in possession ? I don't have a problem with UBC's for all gun sales.

I have a big problem with the notion of UBC's when neither the Feds nor big city Chiefs put any effort into prosecuting people are turned down by the current system. According to the Milwaukee WI Chief of Police... "we don't waste resources on paper trails"... As though the 76,000 denied criminals just gave up on getting a gun?

Straw purchasers get a slap on the wrist, if anything, denied criminals are not prosecuted, violent gangs causing the majority of murders are never cracked down on because everyone, "including Cops and Politicians" are getting their piece of the Drug Pie...

... And your OK with giving this corrupt system MORE power to INFRINGE upon 2A?

With all due respect, I find your position to be the "simplistic" capitulation of someone NOT seeing the bigger picture. As someone else already said, the DEVIL is in the DETAILS and UBC's can only lead to registration.

Tack

gocritter 03-10-2013 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 (Post 1171004)
I have a big problem with the notion of UBC's when neither the Feds nor big city Chiefs put any effort into prosecuting people are turned down by the current system. According to the Milwaukee WI Chief of Police... "we don't waste resources on paper trails"... As though the 76,000 denied criminals just gave up on getting a gun?

Straw purchasers get a slap on the wrist, if anything, denied criminals are not prosecuted, violent gangs causing the majority of murders are never cracked down on because everyone, "including Cops and Politicians" are getting their piece of the Drug Pie...

... And your OK with giving this corrupt system MORE power to INFRINGE upon 2A?

With all due respect, I find your position to be the "simplistic" capitulation of someone NOT seeing the bigger picture. As someone else already said, the DEVIL is in the DETAILS and UBC's can only lead to registration.

Tack

As there are millions of firearms that the goverment has no clue who has them how can UBC work? If someone sells me a firearm and the goverment don't know that person ever had it and we don't want to do a UBC whats to stop the sale? A favorite political statement "common sense" tells us the only way UBC can work is total registration. The political left and the media will push registration after UBC without it don't work.


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:30 AM.

Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.