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Old 12-23-2011, 03:26 AM   #11
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The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Sir Oscar Wilde...I think?

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Old 12-23-2011, 01:45 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Sir Oscar Wilde...I think?
Thomas Jefferson I believe.
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Old 12-23-2011, 02:48 PM   #13
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I get the impression the POTUS has no sense of honor.

There's no moral compass, no sense of ethics.

The only way he'll be bothered by this is if some

poll specialist tells him he's losing votes over it.


He makes it seem like he's known about it all

along, by his actions.

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Old 12-24-2011, 05:15 AM   #14
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"... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty.... And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
-Thomas Jefferson,letter to William S. Smith,1787

He was talking about Shays Rebellion,which was actually a big part of why we ratified the Constitution,and although he was discussing that particular rebellion in somewhat unfavorable terms,he also recognized that it is ultimately the right of the people to rebel,and to do so whilst armed and with force,and that the spirit of rebellion was necessary to keep government in check.

Liberals like to argue that Jefferson himself was not in favor of spontaneous armed rebellion,and indeed I'd say he wasn't,and liberals like to say that we "right wing radicals" like to use this quote to "justify violence"- but given Jefferson's words in the Declaration of Independence,I would say that he found it right and just to forcefully rebel under the circumstances of tyrannical government.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..........."

I'm sure Jefferson meant "by any means necessary",but as a peace loving people we must first exhaust all remedies to the exclusion of physically abolishing the tyrants.....the same as our Founders sis when they repeatedly tried to address the King for redress of grievance......
The Founding generation was PUSHED to war by long sufferance of tyranny,there was nothing "spontaneous" about it,therefor the left,as usual is full of guano.....when they insist that there is no place whatsoever for physical rectification of tyranny,they are WRONG.

There is most certainly a place and a time for just that.

Basically,the liberals and other big government types think that rebellion against a government as venal and oppressive as one that needs to INSTIGATE REASONS TO TRAMPLE OUR RIGHTS,such as committing itself and its agents TO FALSE FLAG OPERATIONS in order to gain political public favor for more "gun control",would be a "spontaneous rebellion" that has no real basis for complaint.
This; as well as DECADES of un-constitutional government and encroachments on Liberty from a central government gone mad with power.

The facts about "operation gunrunner" as I see them are thus-

There is a growing problem with violent drug cartels on the southern border seeking to exploit the illicit trade market which is an unavoidable consequence of any prohibition.

During the first 6 months or so that this administration had been in power,the blame game was being played on our rights,and the violence in Mexico was being portrayed as being fueled by the American gun trade.
The Holder "justice" department,along with the usual suspects in the MSM pravdas,were agitating for a reinstatement of the Klintonista-era "assault weapon ban" to "fix" the "problem".

When it became apparent and common knowledge that the BATFEces were only tracing a very small percentage of guns found by Mexican authorities and that was skewing the reported numbers,and the Mexicans were ALSO finding weapons like hand grenades and fully automatic weapons,along with large numbers of Chinese made AKM's that had no serial numbers,in other words,items that are not sold on the American gun market,it became apparent that the American gun trade had only a very small part to play in the Mexican cartel wars.
Further,many astute observers questioned the governments assertion that the drug cartels,many of whom had international connections to places where AKM rifles were about 50 American dollars a piece and there were also other weapons like RPGs and such available dirt cheap,would bother to pay upwards of $500 a piece for a semiautomatic version that they then had to go to the trouble of smuggling into Mexico anyway.
Common sense-they could just get their overseas partners to add a crate or two of weapons with the next shipment of dope.

As well as that,many staunch supporters of Liberty and the Second Amendment questioned why Americans had to suffer more loss of both liberty and further infringement of their right to own arms because of a problem in another country.
Why are our rights to blame for foreign problems?

There is also the issue of defecting Mexican military members who saw a more lucrative line of work in drug trafficking then serving in a 3rd world army (and honestly,one can't really blame them) who took their arms -weapons given to the Mexican government by the American government- with them across to the other trenches.Yet another case of "blowback"........

So in effect,the ability of the Obama administration to exploit the tragedy of the Mexican drug wars to institute more gun control here in America dwindled into nothing.

Then came "operation gunrunner".

Ostensibly to track illegal gun sales,this was nothing short of a false flag operation designed to fail from the start at its "stated goal" of providing American federal "law enforcement" with a means to track "straw purchases" from gun dealers to "big time illegal weapons traffickers".
Its TRUE purpose was to create an unhampered by law enforcement avenue for American weapons with American serial numbers to end up in criminal hands across the border.
So that Holder and Pals could say "Look what we found,isnt this a good time to bring back the "assault weapons ban"?"

One things for sure- had this not been a case of the government getting caught red handed,we'd be seeing a HUGE push for the assault weapons ban.......because they've been trying to use op gunrunner in that context anyway.

Imagine if they hadn't been caught and it all looked as legitimate as I'm sure Holder was hoping it would.

There is just too much pointing to this as being the most glaring example of how out of control government has become to let it go; its a scandal of huge proportions; and is monstrous and evil as at its very intent was to manipulate Americans into agreeing to the further curtailment of their own inalienable rights.

Its a glaring indictment of Eric Holder,the BATFEces,the Obama Administration,and the US Government in general.

It shows how low down and dirty those who are in support of "gun control" can go.

It shows that we should not allow the government to overstep its limitations,or else it will do ANYTHING once it gets that inch,to take the full mile and reduce us to wretched subjects of its might.

And if Klintoon can -almost- get impeached for getting his rocks off,how the hell has this administration not even been charged?

Seriously- this makes Watergate look like a comedy skit on Saturday Night Live.

Eric Holder belongs in a prison cell for TREASON,and Obama should be looking at impeachment.

Period.

Its actually very,very scary that this is not the case.

And if a satisfactory settlement to this outrageous abuse of power is not reached to the benefit of those that the perpetrators sought to malign,if the Second Amendment rights of the people are not immediately unhampered by any and all infringements of federal government regulation made contradictory to the meaning and intent of the Second Amendment, which has lead the government to behave in such a criminal and despicable manner in order to achieve more control; and the perpetrators themselves are not JAILED on CHARGES OF TREASON,then what else would this constitute but yet another item on the long list of growing usurpations and violations of the people committed by this government and left unchecked as if such lawlessness of government were legitimate?
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Old 12-24-2011, 03:48 PM   #15
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Once again, the administration has won.

If we're lucky, we just get Holder as a scapegoat?

All the agents who acted irresponsibly with guns knew what

they were doing, and knew it was wrong.

Now these vaginas are hiding under the

federal nanny-skirt, instead of acting like

they have balls, and facing the public like a man.

Typical government scum, they have absolutely no ethics

or masculine pride whatsoever.

Either prosecute these pu$$ies, or sent them to

Sweden for a sex change. They either need to

lose their guns or their balls for life.

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Old 12-24-2011, 07:19 PM   #16
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This is a multi-front effort. Not only did the ATF allow the weapons to be purchased, the DHS allowed the weapons to be transported and cross the border and the DEA is also involved in laundering drug cartel money. This isn't supposition or conjecture; THIS IS FACT AND ADMITTED TO UNDER OATH BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL. Still less than 15% of Congress (approx. 90 members) are voicing ANY disapproval by signing on to the "no confidence" legislation currently before the House and NOT A SINGLE ONE IS A DEMOCRAT.
The government is flagrantly saying to the American people that they do not have to obey the laws and they can do whatever they damn well please with no thought to any responsibility to the citizens of this country; much less those innocents who will die because of them. They have done this over and over with legislation they are specifically exempt from or benefits only they are entitled to; this latest demonstration is the ultimate in telling the American people that the ruling elite are in control and we are nothing but pawns.
How does it feel to live in the United Socialist States of America, Comrade?

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Old 12-25-2011, 08:44 PM   #17
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You mean the Peoples Demokratik Socialist Nanny State of Amerika?
I forgot to pack the KY jelly,so it don't feel too good......

In any case,this is in fact a prime example of LAWLESSNESS by a government that believes that it can make and enforce any law it wants on us,but does not have to obey any law whatsoever- much less the Constitution.

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Old 12-26-2011, 06:52 AM   #18
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But what can a below-average person like me do besides sitting on my ass? I don't want to protest. You see what happens to protesters. I don't want to join any questionable groups. The NRA is great, but it seems like their only effective means are lobbying and strong-arm influence, not unlike gun control advocates. We need political action that will get results before we end up like Australia or the UK at worst.

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Old 12-26-2011, 09:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggernomic View Post
But what can a below-average person like me do besides sitting on my ass? I don't want to protest. You see what happens to protesters. I don't want to join any questionable groups. The NRA is great, but it seems like their only effective means are lobbying and strong-arm influence, not unlike gun control advocates. We need political action that will get results before we end up like Australia or the UK at worst.
The NRA may help secure gun owners rights, but it doesn't have a role in the corruption being discussed here. Unless it played out like some suspect it would have with an assault weapons ban. That's neither here-nor-there because the whole operation was ill-conceived and botched anyway.
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Old 12-26-2011, 02:56 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggernomic View Post
But what can a below-average person like me do besides sitting on my ass? I don't want to protest. You see what happens to protesters. I don't want to join any questionable groups. The NRA is great, but it seems like their only effective means are lobbying and strong-arm influence, not unlike gun control advocates. We need political action that will get results before we end up like Australia or the UK at worst.
The problem with the NRA is it doesn't truly represent us.

It represents the 1 in 25 gun owners who aren't stingy or apathetic.

If the NRA ranks included every gun owner, we wouldn't be here,

sitting on our collective asses, making posts in a gun forum.

We would be watching all involved in Gunrunner be punished as

the irresponsible, tax misusing, public trust abusing sharts they

are...
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