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Old 09-09-2012, 12:39 PM   #81
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@Vikingdad You did a great job of going into specifics to back up my statement. Yet you disagree?

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Old 09-09-2012, 06:30 PM   #82
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@Vikingdad You did a great job of going into specifics to back up my statement. Yet you disagree?
I re-read our statements and realized I had in my head reversed your position. Yes, we are in agreement. The First Amendment applies to the Internet, TV and radio just as the Second Amendment applies to modern weapons. My bad.
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Old 09-09-2012, 11:45 PM   #83
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Sigh, BKT I think we may just have to agree to disagree on this, but I'll give it one more try.

You may be right from a historical perspective that the States intent was that Article VI, Clause 2 (the entire Constitution for that matter) only placed a restriction on the Federal government and placed no restriction on the States. But the actual wording is quite explicit.

"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the constitution or laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."
-Article VI, Clause 2 of the United States Constitution,the "Supremacy Clause"

That wording clearly means that the States may not make laws that are at odds with the Constitution, neither may judges in those States enforce such laws. As written the States (and their judges) are bound by the Constitution and, thanks to the States themselves, the Bill of Rights. I choose to believe that the States are bound by the Constitution because the Constitution, which the States ratified, says so.

You mentioned the Tenth Amendment as being the reason why the States are not restricted, but that is not what 10A says either.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people" Since Article VI, Clause 2 explicitly prohibits the States from making laws that conflict with the Constitution, 10A does not provide a blanket exemption for States to do whatever they want. The exemption only applies to things not covered by the Constitution. Gun control laws conflict with 2A and are therefore unconstitutional. The States did not have the right to pass those laws.

I do thank you for helping me see more clearly about whether permits should be (ahem) permitted or not. 2A is THE permit for all US citizens. State and local permits also violate 2A.

The most ideal circumstance would be for all states to set aside all gun control laws (at least those that restrict law abiding citizens). If that happy outcome cannot be achieved in one step, then I would be willing to accept an intermediate step where all states must allow LACs to carry and must recognize one another's permits in a manner similar to drivers licenses. As indicated in the original post, what I am not willing to accept is for some states to outlaw guns.

It has been a pleasure having a polite debate without a lot of name calling and mockery. Thank you, sir.

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Old 09-10-2012, 09:27 AM   #84
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OK, that's fine as far as it goes. We don't disagree philosophically, but your interpretation won't reverse countless rulings and history disagrees with you.

Absolutely, 2A should be fully incorporated against the states and all gun control laws should disappear.

When you consider the NFA and GCA'68 - both are federal laws - directly steps on 2A and have been upheld by the SCOTUS, you can see we have a lot of work to do to bring this about.

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Old 09-10-2012, 11:22 AM   #85
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OK, that's fine as far as it goes. We don't disagree philosophically, but your interpretation won't reverse countless rulings and history disagrees with you.

Absolutely, 2A should be fully incorporated against the states and all gun control laws should disappear.

When you consider the NFA and GCA'68 - both are federal laws - directly steps on 2A and have been upheld by the SCOTUS, you can see we have a lot of work to do to bring this about.
I agree with all of that. My interpretation definitely doesn't change history. And all gun control laws, local, state or federal, need to be overturned.
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Old 09-10-2012, 07:50 PM   #86
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I doubt any of us can imagine what weapons the human race will have 200 years from now.
I do not know about this. The weapons system depicted in my avatar is a very viable weapon system right now if the fusion reactor that powers it could be mass produced. But that may have to wait for 200 years or so.
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:06 AM   #87
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OK, that's fine as far as it goes. We don't disagree philosophically, but your interpretation won't reverse countless rulings and history disagrees with you.

Absolutely, 2A should be fully incorporated against the states and all gun control laws should disappear.

When you consider the NFA and GCA'68 - both are federal laws - directly steps on 2A and have been upheld by the SCOTUS, you can see we have a lot of work to do to bring this about.
Alot of work made easy:

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Old 09-12-2012, 11:00 AM   #88
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Alot of work made easy:

Yeah, but a reset to what? The Founders' vision? I doubt it.
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Old 09-12-2012, 07:26 PM   #89
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Well whats happening right now is clearly unsustainable from a fiscal perspective as well as a perspective of liberty.

When Rome crumbles,we'd better hope theirs enough people who believe still left over,or we can prepare ourselves for another dark age,this time a dark age administered by our "betters" on a worldwide scale.....

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