New Mexico - Court Expands police right to take guns from cars! - Page 3


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Old 05-28-2011, 03:14 PM   #21
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I agree with any officer asking for the firearm as precaution as long as it is done with professionalism and with respect for the person and his or her rights. I am an NRA Benefactor and if anything I am for it is for our second amendment rights. I was LE for 27+ years and SWAT for 16 and came into contact with many who were carrying. Both legal and illegal. With the good folks/law abiding citizens I kindly always ask if they had a permit for the weapon. And also instructed them how to present the permit and firearm to me. I basically did this not because I feared the law abiding citizen but as precaution. After business was completed, I kindly returned the weapon to them in a safe and appreciative manner. And never made any rude or unkind remarks about them carrying. Generally I advised I was glad that they had a permit and was able to carry for personal protection. As well as advising them I surely realized the police can not be everywhere when needed. I usually also advised them one reason that we also did that not only for safety but also to run the serial number for stolen which I believe the previous posts have missed that point. In most all of the cases the person possessing the weapon had no idea it was stolen. I know if I have been a victim and had one of my weapons stolen in the past. I would only hope that the Law would conduct this check on weapons they came into contact with. So there might possibly be a chance I could get one of my prized possessions returned. Especially if it had been a family heirloom. In my carrier I recovered at least 10 stolen weapons over the 27 years. Obviously most from the criminal a couple from a flea market and a couple from honest citizens that ended up with them. By the way they were not charged! And in the ones recovered, many of the owners were very appreciative that law enforcement had done this. We all know that insurance to cover our weapons is almost impossible due to cost. And recovery is next to nil! By the way it did not inconvenience the person who was stopped because it takes a matter of a minute to run a complete national check for stolen while you are conducting normal tasks.
However if an officers would do this in a arrogant, sarcastic, anti-gun, liberal manner regarding dealing with the citizens and their Second Amendment Rights I have one opinion! They do not need to carry a badge! They should have a complaint filed against them and action should be taken. They are only on an ego power trip and should not be an officer to begin with. Unfortunately there are some of those. Good Officers are like good martial artist and good soldiers. They do not need to tell you how wonderful, skilled,l or bad they are. They just are!

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Old 05-30-2011, 03:51 AM   #22
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For starters, thank you for your service.

I'm going to have to disagree with your approach on this one. In your 27 years of law enforcement, did you ever pull over a motorist and temporarily detain them in order to confirm they had a driver's license? You know, to make sure it wasn't expired or suspended? Would it be legal for you to do so without witnessing them commit any traffic violations and without any reasonable suspicion that the person had committed a crime?

My point being that if a person is just walking around with a firearm holstered on their hip - not breaking any laws - there's no reason to say a word to them. It would be like stopping every car you see on the road to check people's driver's licenses.

It may be different where you live, but where I'm at (Georgia), there's case law on the books that says that the presence of a firearm is not reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred (State v. Jones). Police here can ASK to see a license, but citizens do not have to comply with the request. There are some exceptions, but if joe schmoe is packing a full size 1911 (holstered) while grocery shopping, minding his own business, there's no requirement here for him to produce a carry permit if asked.

If every police officer I passed stopped me to check my permit without reasonable suspicion, I'd consider that harassment. If I'm not doing anything illegal, there's no need to stop me.

For anyone who would STILL bring up the argument, "But the officer doesn't know if you're legally carrying!", please read my "driver's license" example one more time before replying. Police officers don't know if every driver they pass on the road is licensed either.
For starters you need to understand each State has different laws pertaining to licenses to drive and to carry concealed weapons. It really matters little what the law is in Georgia as this case is in New Mexico.

As far a Texas is concerned, you can be stopped just to check if you are licensed to drive. No other violation needed. It is rarely used, but still legal.

Texas also requires you to show your CHL if stopped by an officer and carrying. They do not have to ask for you handgun license, just for ID. AND, Texas does not allow open carry.


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Old 05-30-2011, 01:20 PM   #23
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"It may be different where you live...." I'm well aware that laws differ by state.

I'm sorry you live in a place that allows a government official to violate your 4th amendment rights. In most other states, pulling someone over just to check their DL wouldn't fly.

I was making two points:
Encountering a citizen who is openly carrying a firearm should be a non-event for law enforcement,
and....
It's not right that law enforcement apparently CAN do that in Tennessee (The individual I responded to is from TN). It's not legal in Georgia, and it's working just fine for us.
How is stopping you to check your license status a violation of the 4th Amendment? There is no search, just a request for proof of your license. There is no seizure, a temporary detention with the emphasis on TEMPORARY.
The Texas law has been challenged repeatedly and found to be Constitutional.

I guess you know to not come to Texas or New Mexico and your Constitutional rights will be preserved
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Old 05-30-2011, 01:52 PM   #24
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This could all be avoided if you would just learn the Jedi Mind trick. One day I will find someone that it works on.

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Old 05-30-2011, 03:03 PM   #25
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As long as they give it back when they are done and I have proven not to be a problem I have no issues with it.

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Old 05-31-2011, 04:46 AM   #26
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^^^^ I understand what you are saying, but the fact of the matter is that WE are not and haven't been the people with the power in quite some time, IMO. Until that can be changed, tact might be the better way to handle encounters with armed agents of those in charge.


I got picked up for armed robbery once. I was living in a decent college kid neighborhood in the early 1990's and went for a walk one evening after a lively discussion with my roomies. I was walking in the edge of a field maybe 20 yards from the edge of the road when about four squad cars screeched up suddenly. The officers loudly advised me to walk to the road; at this point i was thinking "oh crap, who owns this yard". They proceeded to have me lie down on the pavement (glad it wasn't a summer day); at this point a couple of them had hands on pistols but weren't pointing them at me, as best i recall. About the time one officer started patting me down for weapons (still on the pavement), i remembered that my 6", non-folding knife was horizontally secured on the back of my belt in a concealed manner. Yup, they became notably nervous when the officer found it, understandably. They managed to cuff me without putting a knee in my back since i offered no resistance. The put me in the back of the squad car without explaining the situation. Well, as it turns out i just happened to go for a walk at the same as a very similarly dressed fellow robbed the shell station 100 yards from the house i was renting. The clerk indicated to the officers that i was not the armed robber. The officers took me out of the car, advised me to carry a golf club rather than the knife when out for a walk, returned the knife, and offered me a lift home. I walked home enjoying the ability to breathe.

I am of the firm belief that this situation worked out with no injuries or charges or the loss of my knife (not really legal when concealed or carried) due to my surprise and lack of resistance. The officers had good reason to check me out, since i fit the description and the area for the armed robbery, and i do not fault them for their actions at all. Did i want to be "proned out" or patted down? No. Did it bother me at the time? Hell yes! Did it bother me the next day? Not really. I was doing nothing illegal other than possibly trespassing in an unmowed field within sight of a sidewalk and not near any house or building.

Now, had i been in my home as a half dozen officers stormed into it, things would probably not have gone as well for any of the parties involved, BUT I was in public and had a lower expectation of personal security and privacy as a good serf should. Until this country's over-inflated government is either reformed, reduced, rebooted, or outright disolved, those of us who wish to remain free and alive would do well to remember our places in the greater scheme of things and the logical and tactical advantage of cooperation with those agents of the government in authority over US.

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Old 05-31-2011, 02:41 PM   #27
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If a police officer detains you without you having done anything wrong and then proceeds to seize your personal belongings by force, that is a violation of the 4th amendment. It doesn't matter how long you're detained, you are still being held against your will without any wrong doing.
So if a TSA agent detains you (at the screening line) and you have done nothing wrong, and they seize your pocket knife from your carry-on, your 4th Amendment rights have been violated?

Logic apparently has no place in your life.
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:36 PM   #28
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The nice thing about being from America is that we don't have to all believe alike, and can have differing opinions. Because one person believes that this subject is ok does not make it wrong, it just makes it that person’s opinion and belief.

I personally don't always agree with Robo, and he does not always agree with me. But he is one I would stand beside armed to the teeth and dare anyone to try and take Robo, and it would be over my dead body.

When I think about things like this topic I remember "innocent until proven guilty" That is my guide.

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Old 05-31-2011, 04:28 PM   #29
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You're a dumbass, and i'm leaving this forum.
1. You just called a Moderator a "dumbass"; that generally isn't all that smart or appreciated by the forum community. 2. Thanks for stopping by, and have a nice trip. 3. Robo and I have some fundamental differences on an issue or two, but he does strike me as the kind of LEO i wish there were more of (except for his impact on patrol car MPG's ).

IOW, good riddance!
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Old 05-31-2011, 11:12 PM   #30
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I think this issue is difficult because the two sides are likely seeing it in two very extremes and this issue has merit but can easily be abused by law enforcement. The slippery slope argument is often used with firearms and a logical next step would be to confiscate firearms at your home if they are performing a search for any reason. This might sound totally logical but if they have a search warrant to look for a stolen 50" TV that does not give them the right to search my gun safe that could not fit a 50" TV, however using this ruling they might be able to force me to open the safe to turn over any firearms for their "safety". Not saying it will happen but it could be abused in such ways.

From a few pages back, why is "cop" a bad term? It doesn't sound as respectful as officer but I don't understand why "cop" is an insult like "po-po" could be.



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