michagan teen arrested for legal open carry - Page 27
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:16 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by partdeux View Post
Fluke,

MI is not an ID state. Even if the LEO had a RAS, he was not required to product ID. But the real question in this case, did he have a RAS that the young man was underage. I asked this before, what training is provided to LEO to determine age by appearance?

AXX, could you please show me where in the constitution a person is allowed to buy cigs and alcohol? Shall not be infringed doesn't say "only when you look old enough".
Editted... already discussed
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:20 PM   #262
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Some more food for thought:

Any BB gun that has the capability to fire pellets uses compressed air, or gas is consindered a long gun and cannot be purchased or used by any minor under the age of 18.

No minor under the age of 18 can use any long gun without a Licensed hunter, parent/guardian. It cannot be fired in rural areas just like any other gun type.

Ask me how I know this?

A 12 year old kid in my neighborhood was firing a pellet gun near the playground with a bunch of other kids around and behind my house. This just happend a week or 2 ago.

Kid went to police station and a friendly call to the parents about violation of the long gun law in Michigan. It's a higher degree ticket than a normal misdemeanor but I do not believe it's considered a Felony.

That is Michigan Law.

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Old 06-21-2012, 12:30 PM   #263
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editted

/10char

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Old 06-21-2012, 12:45 PM   #264
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Then again it is Michigan.... as in some city in SE MI it's against the law to walk a turtle down the street too.

Anyone want to test that out see if they get a ticket?

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Old 06-21-2012, 02:22 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402 View Post
This young looking adult was walking down the street carrying a firearm. Since he looked to be under 18 years of age the cop detained him to determine his age. Somebody on here came up with the brilliant idea of just asking the kid how old he was. Yeah, right. Like the kid wouldn't lie if he was under age. So anyway, back to the detaining of the kid, excuse me, adult to determine his age. All you legal scholars out there need to check your Michigan law. If a person in Michigan is detained for investigation of a crime or possible crime it becomes mandatory to show ID on demand. This kid, excuse me, adult, refused.

Yeah I know. I keep calling him a kid even though he is an adult. Do you know why? Because he looks like one and he acted like one. All he had to do was cooperate. All he had to do was offer proof of age. Did he do this? Nope. Now either he or his parents are having to pay a lawyer and come up with bond because an 18 year old with an attitude refused to comply with the law, even though he was legally within his rights under state law up until he was detained and asked for ID.

Yes, I know I just said state law, and yes I know I'm probably going to get bombarded with a lot of Second Amendment drivel. Just remember the Tenth Amendment. It's in the same Bill of Rights, and just as important as the other nine amendments. The Tenth Amendment, sometimes referred to as the States Rights Amendment allows the individual states to determine how you will exercise your rights under all the other amendments while within the borders of that state.
You forget that he did actually show his ID once more officers showed up. BEFORE he was arrested.
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:03 PM   #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
"Somebody on here came up with the brilliant idea of just asking the kid how old he was."

That would be me, the reason I said that is until that moment, he wasnt breaking any laws (according to the report). If he had asked the young adult his age and the answer seemed deceptive or incorrect, that would have been grounds to ask for a photo ID. The fact that he asked for a drivers License tells me the LEO probably believed he was at least old enough to drive.

Im not anti LEO, I actually very respectful of their jobs and dedication. I just have seen and heard way too many cases where the actual laws are bent and twisted subjectively FOOG! l

The Occupy Wall-street crowds were breaking laws left and right, refusing to follow orders by the police and most certainly disturbing the peace yet they were left to do what they wanted in most cases. Were not even required to show ID at the Voting booth. Police in AZ arent even allowed to check the IDs of those they suspect entered the country illegally. This young man was not doing any of those things yet he was required to produce ID for not breaking the law.

The laws must be applied equally and fairly or they are not laws, they are wedges.
Maybe, maybe not. Each state is allowed to come up with their own laws for a reason.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:12 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlukeLSX View Post
Some more food for thought:

Any BB gun that has the capability to fire pellets uses compressed air, or gas is consindered a long gun and cannot be purchased or used by any minor under the age of 18.

No minor under the age of 18 can use any long gun without a Licensed hunter, parent/guardian. It cannot be fired in rural areas just like any other gun type.

Ask me how I know this?

A 12 year old kid in my neighborhood was firing a pellet gun near the playground with a bunch of other kids around and behind my house. This just happend a week or 2 ago.

Kid went to police station and a friendly call to the parents about violation of the long gun law in Michigan. It's a higher degree ticket than a normal misdemeanor but I do not believe it's considered a Felony.

That is Michigan Law.
Per state statute
[quote]28.421 Definitions.
Sec. 1. As used in this act:
(a) "Felony" means that term as defined in section 1 of chapter I of the code of criminal procedure, 1927
PA 175, MCL 761.1, or a violation of a law of the United States or another state that is designated as a felony
or that is punishable by death or by imprisonment for more than 1 year.
(b) "Firearm" means a weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by an explosive, or by
gas or air. Firearm does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively
for propelling by a spring, or by gas or air, BB's not exceeding .177 caliber
.[\quote]
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:59 AM   #268
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You forget that he did actually show his ID once more officers showed up. BEFORE he was arrested.

That depends on which story you believe. The girlfriend says he did, the cops say he didn't. One interview with a police official states that he still had not produced ID when he got to the station. The only thing everybody agrees on is that he initially refused. I believe the cops honestly thought the stop was covered under Terry, and that they had every right in the world to ask the kid for ID to determine whether a crime was being committed or not. Whether or not they were right is for the judge to figure out, but if the kid had just produced the ID when he was asked, there wouldn't be anything for a judge to even look at.

To put it bluntly, the kid acted like a holier than thou ass. He challenged the cops authority in a public setting and got arrested for it. Not only did he get arrested, he was arrested on additional charges that resulted from his lack of (initial?) cooperation. He basically thumbed his nose at the cops and taunted them with 'you can't touch me. I know my rights.' and that is an argument I have never seen won by anybody but the cops. If you want to fight them, wait for the courtroom and ream them a new one. The place to do it is not on the street. You won't win.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:02 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc3402
You forget that he did actually show his ID once more officers showed up. BEFORE he was arrested.

That depends on which story you believe. The girlfriend says he did, the cops say he didn't. One interview with a police official states that he still had not produced ID when he got to the station. The only thing everybody agrees on is that he initially refused. I believe the cops honestly thought the stop was covered under Terry, and that they had every right in the world to ask the kid for ID to determine whether a crime was being committed or not. Whether or not they were right is for the judge to figure out, but if the kid had just produced the ID when he was asked, there wouldn't be anything for a judge to even look at.

To put it bluntly, the kid acted like a holier than thou ass. He challenged the cops authority in a public setting and got arrested for it. Not only did he get arrested, he was arrested on additional charges that resulted from his lack of (initial?) cooperation. He basically thumbed his nose at the cops and taunted them with 'you can't touch me. I know my rights.' and that is an argument I have never seen won by anybody but the cops. If you want to fight them, wait for the courtroom and ream them a new one. The place to do it is not on the street. You won't win.
All of this "If he would have cooperated he would t have this trouble" talk makes me sick. Assuming there isn't a legal right for the officer to ID him, then don't do it! Doing it, despite it being a violation of your rights, just to "stay out of trouble" or "avoid the hassle" is the first step down a slippery slope. Know your rights and stick to them.... Rights you have on paper but don't use in reality aren't rights at all.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:05 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by Todd_ View Post
All of this "If he would have cooperated he would t have this trouble" talk makes me sick. Assuming there isn't a legal right for the officer to ID him, then don't do it! Doing it, despite it being a violation of your rights, just to "stay out of trouble" or "avoid the hassle" is the first step down a slippery slope. Know your rights and stick to them.... Rights you have on paper but don't use in reality aren't rights at all.
I think the point was press your rights in court where you have the edge, not on the street where frankly the police (no matter how out of line) has the edge.
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