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Old 04-30-2012, 09:14 PM   #131
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Flame me all you want, but he was asking for trouble the second he refused to provide ID. I'm all for open carry, and seeing as how he's 18, here in michigan that was his only option. But refusing to provide ID is opening the doors to needless hassle for both parties. What did he have to gain by NOT showing his ID? Both the Officer and the teen were well within their rights.
That's the crux of the issue. Are we obliged to set aside our rights because the cops will always assume we're up to no good?

If he had said "it's legal to open carry here and I'm only 18 and I can't get a CC permit yet." that should have been enough. If the cop has reason to believe a crime is about to be or has been committed, that's a different story. But cops can't ask to see your papers just for the hell of it in this country.

Would it have been a big deal for the kid to show his ID? No, of course not. The point is, he shouldn't have been asked.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:21 PM   #132
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Had the kid complied with the simple request to show his id there would probably been a completely different out come. And after doing so if the outcome had not been different he could have had a field day in court I'm sure. I just don't see why any intelligent person has a problem with this. If I was called out on a complaint and had to confront someone with a gun, I would want to know who I'm dealing with or what I dealing with. Let's face it Leo's get shot walking up to a car window just to write a simple speeding ticket. If the kid looks to young he should check, I mean come on ids are checked every day to purchase beer or cigarettes. Now if i see he is of age since I have already made the stop before I have back a weapon I check for warrants or criminal (felon) records. If all is ok both are on their merry way.

But if the first thing you do is refuse to comply with a simple request and act like an asshat, then the first thing I am going to think is you have something to hide. A bad attitude and total disrespect for the officer will put him on guard. And the frustration could cause a very good leo to appear to be a bad one. Are their bad cops, you bet. But the majority are good, the only want to do their job and be able to go home to their family.

Yes a nine minute response time would feel like a lifetime if your waiting for help, but the sad fact is most departments are under staffed. And in this case if the officer was not tied up with a uncooperative clown he could have moved on to the next call.

And yes this kid gives gun owners a black eye, simply because of his actions. I would think that any intelligent gun owner would want to be viewed as intelligent law abiding citizen. Yes there are people out there dead set against guns, we can forget about them. But there are others not sure or straddling the fence, let's win them over not drive them away.

I'm will not give up my rights, but let's use the right methods to protect them.

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Old 04-30-2012, 10:34 PM   #133
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I'm will not give up my rights, but let's use the right methods to protect them.

You just don't get it and you probably never will. Simply by saying that the police have a right to stop and ask for papers when you are doing nothing illegal, you have given up your rights.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:37 PM   #134
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Had the kid complied with the simple request to show his id there would probably been a completely different out come. And after doing so if the outcome had not been different he could have had a field day in court I'm sure. I just don't see why any intelligent person has a problem with this. If I was called out on a complaint and had to confront someone with a gun, I would want to know who I'm dealing with or what I dealing with. Let's face it Leo's get shot walking up to a car window just to write a simple speeding ticket. If the kid looks to young he should check, I mean come on ids are checked every day to purchase beer or cigarettes. Now if i see he is of age since I have already made the stop before I have back a weapon I check for warrants or criminal (felon) records. If all is ok both are on their merry way.

But if the first thing you do is refuse to comply with a simple request and act like an asshat, then the first thing I am going to think is you have something to hide. A bad attitude and total disrespect for the officer will put him on guard. And the frustration could cause a very good leo to appear to be a bad one. Are their bad cops, you bet. But the majority are good, the only want to do their job and be able to go home to their family.

Yes a nine minute response time would feel like a lifetime if your waiting for help, but the sad fact is most departments are under staffed. And in this case if the officer was not tied up with a uncooperative clown he could have moved on to the next call.

And yes this kid gives gun owners a black eye, simply because of his actions. I would think that any intelligent gun owner would want to be viewed as intelligent law abiding citizen. Yes there are people out there dead set against guns, we can forget about them. But there are others not sure or straddling the fence, let's win them over not drive them away.

I'm will not give up my rights, but let's use the right methods to protect them.
Great post^^^
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:48 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by kycol
Had the kid complied with the simple request to show his id there would probably been a completely different out come. And after doing so if the outcome had not been different he could have had a field day in court I'm sure. I just don't see why any intelligent person has a problem with this. If I was called out on a complaint and had to confront someone with a gun, I would want to know who I'm dealing with or what I dealing with. Let's face it Leo's get shot walking up to a car window just to write a simple speeding ticket. If the kid looks to young he should check, I mean come on ids are checked every day to purchase beer or cigarettes. Now if i see he is of age since I have already made the stop before I have back a weapon I check for warrants or criminal (felon) records. If all is ok both are on their merry way.

But if the first thing you do is refuse to comply with a simple request and act like an asshat, then the first thing I am going to think is you have something to hide. A bad attitude and total disrespect for the officer will put him on guard. And the frustration could cause a very good leo to appear to be a bad one. Are their bad cops, you bet. But the majority are good, the only want to do their job and be able to go home to their family.

Yes a nine minute response time would feel like a lifetime if your waiting for help, but the sad fact is most departments are under staffed. And in this case if the officer was not tied up with a uncooperative clown he could have moved on to the next call.

And yes this kid gives gun owners a black eye, simply because of his actions. I would think that any intelligent gun owner would want to be viewed as intelligent law abiding citizen. Yes there are people out there dead set against guns, we can forget about them. But there are others not sure or straddling the fence, let's win them over not drive them away.

I'm will not give up my rights, but let's use the right methods to protect them.
Stopping someone with no reasonable suspicion of law being broken and running ID for wants and warrants is ILLEGAL. PERIOD. whether it was a good cop or bad cop, cooperative, uncooperative, is all illrelevent. It doesn't change the law. Which like it or not doesn't change for the kid or the leo.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:53 PM   #136
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In order for him to legally obtain the firearm he had to be 18, but how did the officer know the person carrying the long gun was old enough to obtain it or carry it? That's what he was trying to determine when 'Mr. You Can't Arrest Me' decided to show his girlfriend he was smarter than the cops.

The officer was doing what he was supposed to do. He saw something unusual, he checked it out, and if 'Mr. I Know My Rights' had complied with the request for ID, that should have been the end of it.
Again, the officer cannot force him to identify himself. The man did nothing illegal or that would warrant a terry stop. The officers handled it poorly. If the guy didn't want to hand over his ID, the cop could have watched him for a few minutes to see if he was loony and then gone on his way. There is often more than one way to accomplish a task. Using the arrest option did far more to disturb the peace than this guy ever did.

Open carry is just as much a free speech option as that crazy priest spewing crap on a street corner, but no one bothers him....

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Why? Because the law says he has to be in order to own the firearm? You assume everyone would obey the law. That's not a good idea.
I assume almost everyone follows the law to a reasonable degree. Cops, because they are constantly called to deal with criminals possess the opposite bias and assume any sore thumb is a criminal, as evidenced here. But, you cannot single out an individual because they possess more degrees of freedom to commit a crime. Just because I drive my bulldozer down the street doesn't mean I'm on my way to level the neighbors barn. Hopefully you understand my vernacular here.

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Originally Posted by Bear304inc View Post
Stopping someone with no reasonable suspicion of law being broken and running ID for wants and warrants is ILLEGAL. PERIOD. whether it was a good cop or bad cop, cooperative, uncooperative, is all illrelevent. It doesn't change the law. Which like it or not doesn't change for the kid or the leo.
It's not illegal to volunteer your ID. It is illegal to demand ID and hold someone under false arrest.
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Last edited by tCan; 04-30-2012 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:10 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by kycol View Post
Had the kid complied with the simple request to show his id there would probably been a completely different out come. And after doing so if the outcome had not been different he could have had a field day in court I'm sure. I just don't see why any intelligent person has a problem with this. If I was called out on a complaint and had to confront someone with a gun, I would want to know who I'm dealing with or what I dealing with. Let's face it Leo's get shot walking up to a car window just to write a simple speeding ticket. If the kid looks to young he should check, I mean come on ids are checked every day to purchase beer or cigarettes. Now if i see he is of age since I have already made the stop before I have back a weapon I check for warrants or criminal (felon) records. If all is ok both are on their merry way.

But if the first thing you do is refuse to comply with a simple request and act like an asshat, then the first thing I am going to think is you have something to hide. A bad attitude and total disrespect for the officer will put him on guard. And the frustration could cause a very good leo to appear to be a bad one. Are their bad cops, you bet. But the majority are good, the only want to do their job and be able to go home to their family.

Yes a nine minute response time would feel like a lifetime if your waiting for help, but the sad fact is most departments are under staffed. And in this case if the officer was not tied up with a uncooperative clown he could have moved on to the next call.

And yes this kid gives gun owners a black eye, simply because of his actions. I would think that any intelligent gun owner would want to be viewed as intelligent law abiding citizen. Yes there are people out there dead set against guns, we can forget about them. But there are others not sure or straddling the fence, let's win them over not drive them away.

I'm will not give up my rights, but let's use the right methods to protect them.
It was a simple request and the kid could have easily complied with it.

But why should he have complied? Just because it would have made things easier? Screw that. Talk to the dead Jews of Europe about their decision to get on the cattle cars to "make things easier". Oh, wait. You can't talk to them.

(No, I'm not conflating this incident with the holocaust. But dictatorial power usually comes incrementally rather than all at once.)
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:12 PM   #138
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So much bs.

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Last edited by kycol; 04-30-2012 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:31 PM   #139
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[QUOTE="tCan"

It's not illegal to volunteer your ID. It is illegal to demand ID and hold someone under false arrest.[/QUOTE]

exactly my point.

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Old 04-30-2012, 11:33 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by kycol
So much bs.
There seems to be a problem distinguishing between what you "feel" is right, and what is legal.
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