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Old 04-30-2012, 10:04 AM   #121
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It's also federal law that you have to be 18 to purchase a gun.
In order for him to legally obtain the firearm he had to be 18, but how did the officer know the person carrying the long gun was old enough to obtain it or carry it? That's what he was trying to determine when 'Mr. You Can't Arrest Me' decided to show his girlfriend he was smarter than the cops.

The officer was doing what he was supposed to do. He saw something unusual, he checked it out, and if 'Mr. I Know My Rights' had complied with the request for ID, that should have been the end of it.

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The logical assumption would be that he was 18
Why? Because the law says he has to be in order to own the firearm? You assume everyone would obey the law. That's not a good idea.
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:31 AM   #122
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Doc: " You assume everyone would obey the law. That's not a good idea."



Hmmmm what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? You just can't go around suspecting that everyone is up to something, that leads to paranoia. Paranoia from the left is what got us into this mess in the first place. EEEEKK he has a gun he must be evil. After about 50 years of that, they even have gun people thinking that way.

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Old 04-30-2012, 11:05 AM   #123
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Doc: " You assume everyone would obey the law. That's not a good idea."

Hmmmm what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? You just can't go around suspecting that everyone is up to something, that leads to paranoia. Paranoia from the left is what got us into this mess in the first place. EEEEKK he has a gun he must be evil. After about 50 years of that, they even have gun people thinking that way.
Innocent until proven guilty happens in a court room not on the streets. Other wise I guess there would never be an arrest would there?
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:23 AM   #124
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i believe had he shown his ID, it would have been probably just been left at that and allowed to go his merry way. he decided to challenge the LEO and now faces charges for it. fact is, many LEO don't know all the laws as there are just too many of them, even lawyers have to research laws in prepping for any type of legal action. many LEO make mistakes just like everyone else, remember they to are human and are prone to make mistakes. that's why there are lawyers and judges to sort out all the fine details of the legal system. now he may win his legal battle in court, and have lost the challenge with asserting his rights with the LEO, by thinking he is in his legal rights to carry a firearm. when he was confronted and felt like he was in his right to do as he did, (which he probably was) he also challenged the LEO by refusing to show his ID, and therefor was arrested. so now the DA has to decide whether to pursue the charges, and if they do, he will have to retain a lawyer to defend him in court, and a jury might or might not see the case in the way it's presented by the defendants lawyer. plus he will have to post bond and then attorney fees, and then on top of all of it, he could still be found guilty. seems like a high price to assert your rights when your 18 years old.

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Old 04-30-2012, 11:26 AM   #125
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Innocent until proven guilty happens in a court room not on the streets. Other wise I guess there would never be an arrest would there?

But in this case the guy wasn't breaking any laws. It was legal for him to carry and in Michigan he isn't required to show his ID. Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean he is going to do something wrong. As I stated before if we start harassing people just because they have the equipment to do something wrong then we need to round up every man on suspicion of rape and every women on suspicion of prostitution. I mean after all we have the equipment. And according to you we should be dragged into court to prove we weren't going to do anything unlawful.
Once again we are back to the old quote about giving up your liberty for safety and you deserve neither.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:31 AM   #126
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i believe had he shown his ID, it would have been probably just been left at that and allowed to go his merry way. he decided to challenge the LEO and now faces charges for it. fact is, many LEO don't know all the laws as there are just too many of them, even lawyers have to research laws in prepping for any type of legal action. many LEO make mistakes just like everyone else, remember they to are human and are prone to make mistakes. that's why there are lawyers and judges to sort out all the fine details of the legal system. now he may win his legal battle in court, and have lost the challenge with asserting his rights with the LEO, by thinking he is in his legal rights to carry a firearm. when he was confronted and felt like he was in his right to do as he did, (which he probably was) he also challenged the LEO by refusing to show his ID, and therefor was arrested. so now the DA has to decide whether to pursue the charges, and if they do, he will have to retain a lawyer to defend him in court, and a jury might or might not see the case in the way it's presented by the defendants lawyer. plus he will have to post bond and then attorney fees, and then on top of all of it, he could still be found guilty. seems like a high price to assert your rights when your 18 years old.

You're right police don't know all the laws but ignorance of the law is no excuse. That's what the judge would tell you or I if we broke the law. How can they enforce the law if they don't know what it is. Why do you think it is ok for us to have to pay a high price for our rights? The police/government shouldn't be violating our rights in the first place. Too many people are ready to roll over and let the police/gov. do just that. They make the price high and people start giving up. Seems to be working.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:03 PM   #127
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But in this case the guy wasn't breaking any laws. It was legal for him to carry and in Michigan he isn't required to show his ID. Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean he is going to do something wrong. As I stated before if we start harassing people just because they have the equipment to do something wrong then we need to round up every man on suspicion of rape and every women on suspicion of prostitution. I mean after all we have the equipment. And according to you we should be dragged into court to prove we weren't going to do anything unlawful.
Once again we are back to the old quote about giving up your liberty for safety and you deserve neither.
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You're right police don't know all the laws but ignorance of the law is no excuse. That's what the judge would tell you or I if we broke the law. How can they enforce the law if they don't know what it is. Why do you think it is ok for us to have to pay a high price for our rights? The police/government shouldn't be violating our rights in the first place. Too many people are ready to roll over and let the police/gov. do just that. They make the price high and people start giving up. Seems to be working.
you're right, he was legal to carry it and wasn't doing anything wrong, but the law is, in many states, that if the LEO has probable cause, he can ask for an ID, and beings that more than likely someone called in a complaint that they saw someone walking down the street with a rifle, the LEO was sent to investigate the complaint, so IMO, he was in the right to ask for his ID. had he shown it, it would have been just left at that. if not, by complying with the LEO request, it would have put a greater legal burden on the him. by denying to show his ID, it may make things harder for him to prove innocence, depending on the judge and jury, if it goes that far.

cases get dropped all the time by the DA because a LEO operated outside the legal boundaries. do you know there are still many laws on the books, that are still legal to be cited for, but just aren't enforced? spitting on the sidewalk in front of a courthouse is still a crime that in many places is still on the books, but when was the last time it was ever enforced? probably many, many years. but it can still be enforced because it was never repealed. and there are hundreds more. but the fact of the matter is, LEO do make mistakes, just like everyone else. do you believe the LEO set out to violate his rights or just made a mistake not fully knowing the laws of his state? some people are willing to pay a high price to to ensure their rights and for those i have a great deal of respect for.

i know about the high cost of asserting ones rights. i was once wrongfully arrested, charged and jailed for asserting my rights. i knew i was in the right, but it still didn't change the fact, that i was arrested, charged and jailed. it was dropped by the judge at arraignment when my lawyer brought up the facts of my rights being denied. still cost me attorneys fees, and six days in jail and lost income from me sitting in jail. so yes i do know the the high price of justice and asserting ones rights. the only positive outcome was the LEO who violated my rights was suspended for his actions. sad fact is, the amount of justice is based on how big your checkbook is. i'm not saying it's right, just that it is. hell, everyone knew OJ Simpson was guilty, but his attorneys got him acquitted because he had enough money to hire tough legal counsel who proved reasonable doubt. one of his own attorneys stated once, that with enough money he could get anyone acquitted of any crime they were charged with.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:23 PM   #128
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I got asked at Ray price Harley the other day to pull my shirt down over my holster since it was a public building . WTF does that have to with it ? is the big burly harley dude gonna flip out ?

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Old 04-30-2012, 03:41 PM   #129
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A right never exercised is a right that is lost. On the local forum, there's a kid that is attending college to become an LEO. He understands the laws quite well and tried talking to his class instructor about what was being taught. The instructor was not only wrong, he was really really wrong. MI laws are quirky, and at times difficult to understand.

What really bothers me is this move towards absolute submission to the abused power. This young man had every legal right to do what he was doing without an abuse of power. He did nothing illegal, and yet charged with several over reaching crimes. As others have pointed out, we're innocent until proven guilty. The entire crux of this case is if the officer had a RAS that a crime was being committed because the young man looked too young... Once again, I have to ask the question, what training is provided to a police officer on age identification?

Couple of good legal update reads from the Michigan Municipal League

http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/2008_03.pdf

http://www.mml.org/insurance/shared/publications/leaf_newsletter/2009_04.pdf

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Old 04-30-2012, 08:15 PM   #130
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Flame me all you want, but he was asking for trouble the second he refused to provide ID. I'm all for open carry, and seeing as how he's 18, here in michigan that was his only option. But refusing to provide ID is opening the doors to needless hassle for both parties. What did he have to gain by NOT showing his ID? Both the Officer and the teen were well within their rights.

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