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Old 01-04-2013, 06:21 PM   #31
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Who gets to determine what constitutes healthy? Many in the Liberal establishment would have us believe that simply desiring to own a firearm is a sign of some form of disorder. If nothing else, it's certainly not "desirable" behavior and I could see a process like this used as a weapon. The threshold really needs to be: "Does this person pose a threat to himself or society?"
If one is a bit OCD, it may constitute a mental disorder, but, aside from being annoyingly neat and organized, it doesn't typically constitute a threat to himself or those around him. Mild depression? DUI/alcohol abuse? Who draws the line and where?
Is a returning service member with symptoms of PTSD a threat? Maybe, maybe not. But any one of a number of people at VA can take away 2nd amendment rights with a signature.
Be careful with this concept, it's a minefield. How many LE or Military careers have been destroyed by the Lautenberg Amendment due to BS he said/she said incidents that may or may not actually constitute domestic violence? Flunk the attitude test when the neighbors think you & your significant other's "discussion" is too loud and "Shazam," domestic violence conviction. By-by rights.
In whatever comes, there needs to be checks & balances and legal recourse to "misguided" findings. "Closing the loophole" consists of giving an already runaway govt more power over the individual. I'm not against taking guns away from dangerous people, but the potential for governmental abuse with this is ridiculous.

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Old 01-04-2013, 06:27 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingdad View Post
I'm talking about the mental health loophole which allows people who have been deemed to be of insufficient mental ability to be able to purchase/possess firearms. I am not sure where to locate the facts/links, but as I understand it when a purchaser undergoes the background check the check does not have full access to mental health records nationwide.

What say you all?

I think its opening up a can of legal worms.. There is athing called HIPAA. They maybe over stepping boundaries with people's personal information that is not legal unless that have written consent from thatperson.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by c3shooter View Post
Warning! Thread Drift! Man the lifeboats!

Back to the original post- when a person has been adjudicated as mentally incompetent- the authority doing that is SUPPOSED to make an entry into teh NICS system. Problem is NOT the system, it is the courts that have not done what they are ALREADY supposed to have been doing.

And no, this is not an issue of privacy of medical records- seeking counseling or mental health help is NOT the same thing as being adjudicated as mentally incompetent. That is not a medical issue, but a legal one.

Example- your dad is in a coma. You apply to the court to be appointed his guardian and to manage his affairs for him. That is a LEGAL action- while brought on by a medical condition, it is a legal proceeding. It is far beyond having one Doc that thinks you are not right.
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I think its opening up a can of legal worms.. There is athing called HIPAA. They maybe over stepping boundaries with people's personal information that is not legal unless that have written consent from thatperson.
Stillers, read C3's post above. I htink HIPAA would only come into play if the person was falsely adjudicated.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:57 PM   #34
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Stillers- there are more exceptions to HIPPA than you can shake a stick at. Need example?

Show up at the hospital with a bullet hole in you- the ER WILL contact the police (they are required to)

Doc finds signs of child abuse- think Doc will contact Child Protective Services? Doc HAS to.

You are being treated for Worker's Comp injury. WC insurance carrier needs info on your injury- they have a right to it.

And once again- the root word in adjudicate is JUDGE. Being adjudicated mentally incompetent is not a medical issue, it is a LEGAL issue.

Example- you have been adjudged mentally incompetent. Think that you are going to keep your DRIVER'S LICENSE?
Does the mentally incompetent surgeon get to keep his MEDICAL LICENSE? (Yeah, hand him a scalpel!)
Would I get to keep my EXPLOSIVES LICENSE (Oh yeah- old C3- crazier than a pet coon- but we can sell him 5 cases of 40% and a dozen cast boosters- just don't let him drool on the paperwork again)

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Old 01-04-2013, 08:12 PM   #35
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I'm a recovering alcoholic. Who's to decide that I'm not crazy? Ok, I AM crazy, but not dangerous. Well....

Ok, I'm NOT a paranoid psychopath!

Here's another reason...My liberal NYC cousins have the same idea!

and one more reason:

The Sandy Hook psycho didn't BUY a gun, he stole it.

My $0.02

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Old 01-04-2013, 09:40 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by rjd3282 View Post
Vikingdad there are lots of people responsible. His mother, him of course, the idiot politicians who denied the people in that school the right to defend themselves, anybody who voted for said politicians. Am I missing anyone?
Yes you forgot W, you know it's his fault...
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
The Sandy Hook psycho didn't BUY a gun, he stole it.
Would he have not being allowed to buy firearms. ?
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:30 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pnolans View Post
I'm a recovering alcoholic. Who's to decide that I'm not crazy? Ok, I AM crazy, but not dangerous. Well....

Ok, I'm NOT a paranoid psychopath!

Here's another reason...My liberal NYC cousins have the same idea!

and one more reason:

The Sandy Hook psycho didn't BUY a gun, he stole it.

My $0.02
Have you been adjudicated by the courts? No? Then you are good to go. If I recall correctly the Virginia Tech shooter was adjudicated in another state. That slipped through.

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Would he have not being allowed to buy firearms. ?
The Sandy Hook shooter did attempt to purchase a gun legally but was underage in CT. That is presumably why he stole or took his mother's guns, which circumstances we can only speculate on. In any case, his mother was derelict in her duty or responsibility as a parent and as a human being. But she has paid the ultimate price for that dereliction.

There is nothing that can be done that will prevent 100% of the firearms crimes. But I think that closing the insanity loophole would go much farther in that direction than all of the BS that Pelosi is proposing would do.
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Old 01-05-2013, 01:49 AM   #39
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VikingDad,

I agree with the idea of that... I'm extremely concerned as to how that would be implemented. And as someone else mentioned, who would decide? Politicians? Judges?

I had a DUI 7 years ago (why I'm now a RECOVERING alcoholic)... and was "in the legal system". And I thank God for it. And that I didn't hurt anyone. And I quit drinking.

But.... I got a real good look at how arbitrary and BS the legal system is.

Part of the probation was to go to "counseling"... there were guys in there that had had 5 or 6 CONVICTIONS. By law (CO , anyway) they should have been in jail. Good expensive lawyers, back on probation.

So, again, the idea is good, I think. ... but crazy people will still be running around, and sane people will get committed. or "adjudicated mentally defective".

Respectfully,
My $0.02

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Old 01-05-2013, 02:12 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manta View Post
Would he have not being allowed to buy firearms. ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingdad View Post
The Sandy Hook shooter did attempt to purchase a gun legally but was underage in CT. That is presumably why he stole or took his mother's guns, which circumstances we can only speculate on.........
Manta, you have hit upon the heart of the issue, namely that a mentally-deficient person who has not YET been before the courts to be "adjudicated" or involuntarily committed would, at least in theory, be able to legally buy a firearm at a FFL/gun store.

The question is, do we trust our doctors and government to get together on who should be denied their purchase rights due to mental defect BEFORE they end up in a situation that puts them in court to be adjudicated or involuntarily committed.

I just don't think i trust the doctors and the government to do that. I do wish that parents or guardians could voluntarily have a person with a mental defect evaluated for fitness to own firearms. Of course, there are bad parents/guardians as well as bad doctors and of course bad government officials.
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