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Old 07-22-2012, 08:14 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by sputnik1988 View Post

We are responsible law abiding gun owners. We dont need a visitor or new member thinking otherwise.
At the point that "law abiding" means obeying "laws" that are not only illegitimate in respect of the powers granted the government,but can also GET ME KILLED-

I become an outlaw.

And to hell with the PC Elmer Fudd obedient citizen/subject bull****.
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:00 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by libwguns View Post
I'm sure you realize that this is the exact argument that can be made by many on the other side whenever our beloved NRA takes its "no concessions, no discussions" stand in response to a national tragedy.

In my CPL class of 12 people, three people (two of them being my wife and me) could hit dead-center mass consistently on the targets. The other nine people shot everything but the target. The NRA instructor said "I don't care if you hit a cluster in the wall three feet above the paper, if it's a good cluster, I'm happy." And all nine of those people got their CPLs.

So let's say all nine of them decide they're just not gonna respect and observe the no-guns sign at, say, the local grocery store, and then some SHTF and they draw. They'll be shooting everyone but the BG.

In other words, their wishes to carry into a no-carry will put me and everyone else in harm's way.

I understand why plenty of people would think that being the only legally-armed person in a GFZ puts them at an advantage for being safe. But if 2/3 of them can't hit the broadside of the building they're in, they're just as big a menace as the masked shooter who might decide today's the day to empty the cash registers.
Libwguns, I have read the NRA instructor manual, and this is NOT acceptable training according to the NRA. So I guess my question to you is simply, What did you do about this instructor?
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:05 PM   #53
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At the point that "law abiding" means obeying "laws" that are not only illegitimate in respect of the powers granted the government,but can also GET ME KILLED-

I become an outlaw.

And to hell with the PC Elmer Fudd obedient citizen/subject bull****.
Josh, I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to add your Edmund Burke quote to my sig line. That is a great quote you found and I'd like to propagate it as much as possible. :-)
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:13 PM   #54
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For those wondering, my CCW and Advanced CCW class were trained by a city police department. They also offer room clearing in a full house, night shooting, and a huge amount of advanced training all the way up to SWAT level for civilians. In my original CCW class, two people failed their shooting skills test and had to stay after for special help...I am not certain if they were ever awarded a CCW or not. Different trainers are obviously at different levels, and the quality of training is widely varied. This is why training at different schools with different trainers is a very smart idea, as one bad trainer can only ruin you for life if he is your ONLY trainer.

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Old 07-22-2012, 11:14 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by libwguns View Post

So let's say all nine of them decide they're just not gonna respect and observe the no-guns sign at, say, the local grocery store, and then some SHTF and they draw. They'll be shooting everyone but the BG.

In other words, their wishes to carry into a no-carry will put me and everyone else in harm's way.
I'm sorry,I fail to see any logic whatsoever in allowing deranged gunmen to have ready access to disarmed victims because one of the victims *might* miss if they had a gun and shot back.

If there had been a cop or other government agent in that theater and they had opened fire and hit an innocent person,would that have been "unnecessarily putting others in harms way"?

I know the legal system would call it "good faith" and the agent of the state would face no consequences whatsoever.

Why the double standard for the citizen?
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Old 07-22-2012, 11:17 PM   #56
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Josh, I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to add your Edmund Burke quote to my sig line. That is a great quote you found and I'd like to propagate it as much as possible. :-)
Cool.

I'm glad you like it.
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:24 AM   #57
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LIB

You stated that your instructor WAS concerned with decent groups but was not concerned with hitting the bullseye...right?
Wrong. The clusters never got close to the paper, much less the target on it.

Which is really similar to what's happened to every post I've made here - I say ABC and it's turned immediately into XYZ. So, I'm out. Glad I could offer some entertainment.
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:31 AM   #58
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Oregon law states that a proprietor can post a no gun sign. If he sees you carrying, he may ask you to leave, after which trespassing laws apply.

There are very few places I won't carry, even when it is clearly posted. If someday I am in a situation to thwart an attack or come to someone's defense, I'll gladly accept the consequences. My job doens't allow firearms, but for very good reason. I respect those work rules. My state's supreme court ruled on that and I respect that particular ruling.

I wouldn't even consider going to a move theater unarmed, regardless of any stupid sign.

Nobody was armed, not because of the posted policy, but because it was a midnight premiere of a teenager's movie. Those poor, defenseless kiddos haven't even learned what it means to carry concealed.

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Old 07-23-2012, 12:36 AM   #59
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I live in Santa Clara county, CA. Here it is virtually impossible for anyone who is not politically connected and a close personal friend of the Sheriff to obtain a CCW (oh yes, there is the matter of a $20,000 "application fee" as well). Gun free zones are never posted as the entire county is presumed to be one. I have worked very hard to have the sheriff replaced and so far it doesn't look like it will be happening anytime soon. But that is a subject for another thread.

Several years ago I worked at a car dealership as a mechanic, and as is typical in that field most of the service department employees were gun enthusiasts. Somewhere along the line the General Manager (a dirty rotten bastard of a man) became aware of this fact and also that we would often have firearms locked inside our vehicles parked in the employee parking lot in back of the dealership. Sent out a dealership-wide memo stating that it was against company policy for employees to have firearms on the premises at any time, even locked in our vehicles. The very next day nearly all of the service department employees vehicles were parked on the street directly in front of the dealership as well as the neighboring dealerships and business (as you might expect, the curbside parking is very important for customers use). Later that day there was another memo stating that all employees were prohibited from parking in front of the dealership. This is public street front parking over which the dealership has no legal right to enforce parking restrictions, nevertheless we got another memo later that day sting that all employees were prohibited from parking on the street in front of the dealership at risk of disciplinary action. We then mobilized the employees at the neighboring businesses and dealerships to park in front of our dealership, and we started parking on the street in front of the other businesses. Do you see where this was headed? So a few days pass while the dickhead GM figured out what was happening, he would watch the street in the mornings and see that the same people were parking there, then tell them they couldn't park and they would tell him to get stuffed, he would also see us walking up the street from where we had parked our cars and then the other GM's from other businesses started talking to one another trying to figure out what was going on.

After maybe a week of this, our dickhead GM came to me (I was in a shop leadership position, as well as being known as somebody that could get things done) and asked what the Hell was going on. I told him that his memo prohibiting firearms on the premises was the cause of it all. He asked if we had guns in our cars every day and I told him that if we only parked off the premises when we had guns in our cars that when we were parked off site then everybody would know that on that day we had left potentially several thousands of dollars in guns locked in our car and would therefore be a target for theft. The only logical solution was for us to park off-site every day. He said that he was getting pressure from the other business managers about our parking habits (total BS, he was bluffing because he would never have given any indication to anyone that he was the cause of all of this) and asked how we could resolve it. I told him to rescind the policy, he offered that he would not rescind it but he would not enforce it. I said no deal, he had to rescind the policy in a new company-wide memo.

He eventually caved and issued another memo saying that the company would not prohibit any employee from having any legal possessions on company property.

After lunch that day all of the employee cars magically disappeared off of the street.

This is one example of how a group of people can legally and peacefully resolve a workplace dispute regarding firearms in vehicles.

In regards to businesses displaying GFZ signs, they have every right to do so. The repercussions for non-compliance would vary by state I am sure (or probably by county here in CA).

More directly to Libwguns any business that is not membership based (such as Costco) is a public place, and as such the cannot do much to enforce a GFZ. You can in your own home, or on our own private property, but the whole trespassing/hunting issue you brought up is not a direct analogy. A property that is posted with no hunting, no trespassing signs is not a "public place" as a business is. Plain and simple. Violating a legally posted property is a violation of the law.

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Old 07-23-2012, 12:41 AM   #60
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That is such a long post I almost didn't read it. That was GOOD. I love the ingenuity in your support of our rights.

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