If they come for your guns, do you have a responsibility to fight? - Page 15
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:41 PM   #141
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When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


This still holds true today, just switch the British Crown for the American politicians that are trying to usurp our liberty, our freedoms and our rights under God...
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:42 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by manta View Post
True most in the uk are anti gun or just don't care one way or the other. Americans are right to stand up for their firearms rights. But to say that there is no gun control in America is wrong. If Americans believe in democracy and vote in their politicians that go on to bring in further firearms controls that's democracy.

What turmoil and disdain are you referring to.

PS You haven't told me yet what great freedoms you have that i don't.
But we are not a democracy; our founders knew that "mob" rule wasn't the smartest way to go; they set up a constitutional republic so that everyone's rights are the same. If one person wants to worship God and the rest of the folks in the nation don't, it cannot be outlawed just because the majority want it. (At least that is the way it is supposed to work; won't say it works well that way at this particular moment in time!)
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:43 PM   #143
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Manta...

Unlike British gun control, ours has never come with registration except in a small handfull of Democrat controlled states. The only Federal registration is on Class III weapons and I can't tell you that very few of those that were in private hands when this passed, were ever registered. Owners simply stashed them and American law Enforcement has been smart enough to ignore this reality.

The handful of cases where the Government did go after guns did not end well for either side. Ruby Ridge and Waco TX come to mind... You should read about them.

Their will not be a reinstatement of the AWB or Hi Cap mags bans and if their is, these guns and mags would again be stashed or sold on the black market for 10 times their current value.

Eventually this type of policy would lead to another Ruby Ridge type event but we Americans have already seen to much Government abuse of power to sit on the sidelines when it happens again.

A touchstone event like this could be Concord Bridge all over again and whoosh... The leading global economy grids to a halt as it's mired in an internal hot conflict over 2A liberties.

It ends well for not one and the entire planet suffers as US buying power is shut off... all you Euro-pee-ons would do well to understand this and cease with "missery loves company" mentally that urges you to lament US gun liberties.

Tack
Tack
In the wake of Sandy Hook our country has sent a message. An explosion of citizens arming themselves, millions for first time. At a pace where demand has chewed up supply, heartening really.
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:45 PM   #144
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OK lets say that some might resist most won't. The authorities will finish of the few that do and that will be that. People are quick to come up with conspiracy theories on this forum. If you believe them then do you think the government couldn't subdue a few troublesome individuals.
Ok... Now were down to math huh? Alright then...

US Gun Owners = 80 Million
US Law Enforcement = 1 Million "State and Federal"
US Military = 1.3 Mlion

Now, if we use your assumption that a minority of US Gun Owner would resist, IMHO, a realistic percentage would 10% which is conservative when you recognize that 13% actively participated in our last revolution.

As a US Army Infantry Veteran, I can tell you that less than 50% of active trigger pullers would follow orders to fire on US Citizens so...

...we are talking about an 8 million man militia forces acting independently, unseen, and unidentifiable until they strike against approximately 1.5 Million fixed, uniformed targets that are easilly identifiable and engagable... Hmm

Breaking down the numbers really squashes the myth of Government Invincibility and hi lights just how ludicrous the notion of Government power really is.

We, the American Gun Owners, ARE the power behind the throne and we would choose to burn that throne to the ground before we would kneel to it.

This mentality is not something I would expect a "subject" to understand.

Tack
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:50 PM   #145
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If that's the case how has all the gun controls already in force in America got trough. I didn't see any reports of battles in the streets to resist them. Maybe all the patriots were busy when it was happening.
No registration, no confiscation. Up until they have been nipping on our heels ineffective for the most part.

New York and soon California will be test plots.

This whole scenario goes way beyond the 2A and guns. Act one involves the economy.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:06 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Tackleberry1 View Post
Manta...

Unlike British gun control, ours has never come with registration except in a small handfull of Democrat controlled states. The only Federal registration is on Class III weapons and I can't tell you that very few of those that were in private hands when this passed, were ever registered. Owners simply stashed them and American law Enforcement has been smart enough to ignore this reality.

The handful of cases where the Government did go after guns did not end well for either side. Ruby Ridge and Waco TX come to mind... You should read about them.

Their will not be a reinstatement of the AWB or Hi Cap mags bans and if their is, these guns and mags would again be stashed or sold on the black market for 10 times their current value.

Eventually this type of policy would lead to another Ruby Ridge type event but we Americans have already seen to much Government abuse of power to sit on the sidelines when it happens again.

A touchstone event like this could be Concord Bridge all over again and whoosh... The leading global economy grids to a halt as it's mired in an internal hot conflict over 2A liberties.

It ends well for not one and the entire planet suffers as US buying power is shut off... all you Euro-pee-ons would do well to understand this and cease with "missery loves company" mentally that urges you to lament US gun liberties.

Tack
Tack
Wait I thought they were all registered the machine guns that is and Class III weapons as well as all NFA weapons.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:13 PM   #147
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Wait I thought there was 150 million gun owners here at least that's what I've read and heard.

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Old 02-09-2013, 11:16 PM   #148
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Wait I thought they were all registered the machine guns that is and Class III weapons as well as all NFA weapons.
Well, that's what the law says...

Does anyone really believe the majority of select fire weapons owned prior to these laws and all those that have come home in GI duffle bags over a century were registered?

... Or is it more likely they've been handed down quietly to sons and grandsons... Being stored as a box of parts or concealed elsewhere "just in case?"

Certainly, there is a thriving legal trade in these weapons for those inclined to own them for sporting purposes but I've no doubt there are 5 to 10 squirreled away for every 1 registered... It's just the American Way.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:19 PM   #149
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Eventually this type of policy would lead to another Ruby Ridge
What did it achieve it was hardly a mass popular action.

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Americans have already seen to much Government abuse of power to sit on the sidelines when it happens again
You are kidding yourself you are assuming that most americans have a problem with gun control.

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As a US Army Infantry Veteran, I can tell you that less than 50% of active trigger pullers would follow orders to fire on US Citizens so...
The authorities in America had no problem shooting at unarmed citizens in the past.

Quote. On May 4, l970 members of the Ohio National Guard fired into a crowd of Kent State University demonstrators, killing four and wounding nine Kent State students. The impact of the shootings was dramatic. The event triggered a nationwide student strike that forced hundreds of colleges and universities to close.
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:28 PM   #150
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What did it achieve it was hardly a mass popular action.



You are kidding yourself you are asuming that most americains have a problem with gun controal.
It resulted in Oklahoma City... Which was a horrible act and an inappropriate target but it DID serve to rock the Federal Government back on its heels and showed them that they can not stop a determined individual from acting out violently.

...and no, I said 10% of gun owners, 8 Million, which is roughly .025 of our total population... Hardly a majority... But more than enough.

Tack
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