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Old 10-30-2013, 06:22 PM   #101
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It could not possibly be a serious debate because you insist on calling anyone who points out the flaws in your cryptic, passive-aggressive arguments a Liberal. Dude, you are not always correct in your reasoning. Calling everybody else a liberal will not win your argument.
I agree. But it definitely ups the "popcorn" factor for me. I have to say, I was very confused for a minute when I saw the word liberal getting thrown around and who it was getting thrown at.
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:36 PM   #102
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a "stalemate of contradictions"...lol! that is also called a compromise, stalker. does the word bother you for some reason? i mean its much easier to say....

well, i would normally think that change in the face of strong criticism and pressure normally equals a compromise or settlement.

federalists did not think a BOR was needed.....states and anti-federalists fought and protested....a BOR was promised in the constitution to ratify the document.

it was compromise because the anti-federalists DID NOT WANT the constitution AT ALL! their efforts did not stop the constitution, but led to the BOR included in it. both sides got something without either side getting exactly what they wanted. compromise.

heh....on a side note, the civil war was fought over economy more than anything else. dang those yankees telling us we can't exploit africans anymore....if you want to pull out the civil war, don't forget the civil rights movement, or women's suffrage.... the battle rages on to this day about federal vs state vs power. of the people (though admittedly none as drastic as the civil war). texas just lost a battle regarding abortion in a state vs federal case.

that is never ending, but has little to do with how the BOR was a compromise between two feuding parties in our country. highly unlikely the constitution would have ever been ratified w/o the promise of bill of rights, which yes....was enacted a bit later.

no liberal...no twisting...just history.
I am trying to remember where I read much of this, I think it was a biography of James Madison. He did not believe the bill of rights was necessary because those are God given rights that couldn't be restricted by governments, and free people would not ever elect a government that would try.

As for compromise it was more "my way or else". One of the pieces you quoted mentions that some states put language into their "articles of acceptance" for the constitution (I made that term up I don't know what they called those documents.) mentioning a bill of rights.

Some of those documents stated that without a bill of rights their acceptance of the constitution would be void. I am pretty sure Va. and NY were among these.
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Old 10-30-2013, 09:04 PM   #103
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F4U, Yes you are correct. The Liberals continue to argue that the country has always compromised. They may be correct the leftest using this ploy has destroyed New York and California.
The people who argue this point the most are from these left leaning states. The Liberals are leaving California by the thousands and spreading this Left coast disease across the Nation.
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:40 PM   #104
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F4U, Yes you are correct. The Liberals continue to argue that the country has always compromised. They may be correct the leftest using this ploy has destroyed New York and California.
The people who argue this point the most are from these left leaning states. The Liberals are leaving California by the thousands and spreading this Left coast disease across the Nation.
Not going there.

While I don't think wiki is totally reliable source for this type of stuff. At the moment I haven't located my sources either. I will keep looking through what books I have but it is possible that I got this info is from books I borrowed from the library. I am pretty sure it is the Madison biography I mentioned earlier and that one was from the library. That means it will be a while before until I can site my actual sources.

I wouldn't expect anybody to take my unsupported word for this any more than I would take theirs.

Back to my bookshelves!

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Old 10-31-2013, 11:47 AM   #105
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Not going there.

While I don't think wiki is totally reliable source for this type of stuff. At the moment I haven't located my sources either. I will keep looking through what books I have but it is possible that I got this info is from books I borrowed from the library. I am pretty sure it is the Madison biography I mentioned earlier and that one was from the library. That means it will be a while before until I can site my actual sources.

I wouldn't expect anybody to take my unsupported word for this any more than I would take theirs.

Back to my bookshelves!
i'm here to learn as well as discuss. I've been wrong many times before, if it helps me learn that is a good thing.

sounds like you have researched the subject a bit more then myself.

I know wiki is not a 100% reliable source, but honestly it is usually pretty good (I only used it cause it is good for a quick check). I checked 2 other sources and the overall impression I got was the anti-federalists were basically against the constitution being ratified. the (promise of) inclusion of a BOR was the only thing that persuaded them jump on the wagon so to speak. were both parities involved in a power struggle? I think so....but the fact that the federalists got a constitution and the anti-federalists got the BOR is why I call it a compromise overall. I suppose this could be somewhat subjective.

thanks for the info you have brought to the table.
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Old 10-31-2013, 11:53 AM   #106
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I am trying to remember where I read much of this, I think it was a biography of James Madison. He did not believe the bill of rights was necessary because those are God given rights that couldn't be restricted by governments, and free people would not ever elect a government that would try.

As for compromise it was more "my way or else". One of the pieces you quoted mentions that some states put language into their "articles of acceptance" for the constitution (I made that term up I don't know what they called those documents.) mentioning a bill of rights.

Some of those documents stated that without a bill of rights their acceptance of the constitution would be void. I am pretty sure Va. and NY were among these.
I agree and this is basically the point I am trying to make. were these guys nice and sharing? I doubt it. but they were opposite minded people who came to an eventual agreement.

one group didn't want the constitution at all....the other thought a BOR was unnecessary. the end agreement (or compromise) was a constitution with a BOR. this is my interpretation.....and I think what you have stated is more or less in agreement.
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Old 10-31-2013, 12:06 PM   #107
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Now you are using sophomoric reasoning. Your liberal education and resorting to the "Yankee" and us slave owners against the world BS. What kind of serious debate is this?
The Liberals always argue just don't resist let us compromise. I can assure you the left wing Democrats would disarm the Nation if we followed your theory.
compromise imo is both parties getting what they want and giving in a little as well. the democrats recent policies are not what I generally call compromise. of course the same could be said for most republicans imo.

as for the civil war, I didn't intend to bring it up. and I will not elaborate any further, unless we do a civil war thread.

this is drifting a bit, probably a bit my fault.

it just seems every time we debate, my opinions or comments make you mad and you start calling me liberal or liberal minded....let's just agree to disagree in this thread, because honestly it is not a useful discussion between us anymore at this point.
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Old 10-31-2013, 01:53 PM   #108
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Accusing some one of being "Mad" ? I will ignore that remark. The Liberal tactics of the past 50 years has been, Conservatives refuse to negotiate. This negotiating has led to the controls over silencers, auto-matic weapons handguns etc. After years of negotiating gun owners are left with over 20,000 laws affecting their interest. Will I agree to negotiating on the 2nd Amendment? Hell no.
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Old 10-31-2013, 02:04 PM   #109
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The republicans compromise too dang much. What we need is someone to swing us fiscally WAY back to the right. But all the republicans want to do is whine and compromise.
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:20 PM   #110
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I agree 100% to this. Remove Boehner (sp) and put Cantor in his place. Then we might see a Speaker with a pair.


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The republicans compromise too dang much. What we need is someone to swing us fiscally WAY back to the right. But all the republicans want to do is whine and compromise.
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