How British laws killed off gun ownership - Page 3
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:56 AM   #21
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Matching Brit laws against US Law is interesting but Im more interested in what the outcome is! Are you safer in Britain than I am in New York? We have some of the toughest in the nation but how does that translate to making us safer? Do Brit criminals follow the laws better than ours? Ours have illegal guns, rob people, rape and murder even with the laws, do yours? If it hasnt stopped crime in NY, My guess is it hasnt stopped or prevented crime in Britain either!

Truth is, crime rates in NY were way down long before Safe Act Gun laws were foisted up our 4th point of contact but are rising after they were enacted.

Manta, your nation has embraced imperialism and surf-sistance since long before this little colony went berserk on The Crown. The principles of equal freedom and rights are clearly enumerated in our bylaws. We the people are to be no less equal or endowed than our Government, thats our way. The fact that you point at an "illegal Gun" as the big problem before any crime that it may have been used to prevent tells me that you value human life less than classifying inanimate objects.

You write like you have supreme insight into the fear a victim of crime may or may not have of a perpetrator in the act of committing a crime. Are you really telling me that you would refuse to use a weapon that was not legally obtained to protect yourself or your family from an intruder? You wouldnt grab the gun out of the hands of a wounded criminal to shoot his partner from continuing their crime, really?

Surviving criminal activities perpetrated against you or your family isnt practical using Marques of Queens-berry rules, those that seek to rob and hurt innocent people care nothing about rules, they will do whatever it takes to live another day! Disarming the pool of potential victims essentially empowers the criminal and punishes the lawful citizen; those laws are asinine, made to protect royalty not John and Jane Q Public.

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:19 PM   #22
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The fact that you point at an "illegal Gun" as the big problem before any crime that it may have been used to prevent tells me that you value human life less than classifying inanimate objects.
So if someone in America had a gun illegally and shot someone in the back with it there would problems with the law get real.

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Are you really telling me that you would refuse to use a weapon that was not legally obtained to protect yourself or your family from an intruder?
posabily then I would have to face the consequences like he did the laws the law like it or not. Do you just pick the laws you like in America and the police are ok with that again get real.
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Surviving criminal activities perpetrated against you or your family isnt practical using Marques of Queens-berry rules
I am not sure what that has to do with the post the the guy was living alone.

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made to protect royalty not John and Jane Q Public.
I haven't a clue what you are talking about. Royalty doint make the laws in the UK.

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Manta, your nation has embraced imperialism and surf-sistance since long before this little colony went berserk on The Crown
Again I haveint a clue what you are talking about. If you mean we follow the laws then that's true just like most Americans follow the laws including firearms laws.

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The fact that you point at an "illegal Gun" as the big problem before any crime that it may have been used to prevent tells me that you value human life less than classifying inanimate objects.
It wasint a problem for me it was a problem for the jury. PS doint try and tell me what value I put on human you know nothing about me.
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:40 PM   #23
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In that situation, I see the robbers as the instigators and the homeowner as the victim. Logically, if the robbers (who instigated the robbery situation) suffered some injury or loss, it should be the robbers responsibility/loss and theirs alone. Now, had the homeowner gone out and asked some youths to help him test the integrity of his home and then shot them, the homeowner would be the instigator and responsible party.

Legally? If somebody is a threat to me or mine, I reserve the right to kill them or otherwise eliminate that threat; if the law of the land disagrees, then it will be up to the law of the land to unearth and reassemble the bodies and/or evidence. I don't live in the deep, dark woods, but people do disappear from time to time.


It's probably a waste of time to argue about UK firearms laws, since they were passed by people of different beliefs, different legal system, different human values, etc. I doubt any UK minds would be changed by our disgust at their deplorable (in many US opinions) condition of virtual serfdom. It's their problem; let's leave them to it unless they ask for help. Similarly, for a UK resident/citizen/serf to complain about US laws regarding firearms is about as productive as pissing in the wind.

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Old 09-13-2013, 09:53 PM   #24
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I doubt any UK minds would be changed by our disgust at their deplorable (in many US opinions) condition of virtual serfdom. It's their problem; let's leave them to it unless they ask for help. Similarly, for a UK resident/citizen/serf to complain about US laws regarding firearms is about as productive as pissing in the wind
Where do you get this condition of virtual serfdom from. Most Americans follow the laws just like most do in the UK. Does that make Americans serfs. If being a law abiding citizen makes you a serf then I must be just like most Americans.

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Legally? If somebody is a threat to me or mine, I reserve the right to kill them or otherwise eliminate that threat;
Yes so would most people, someone unarmed running away from you is not a threat.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:08 PM   #25
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Where do you get this condition of virtual serfdom from. Most Americans follow the laws just like most do in the UK. Does that make Americans serfs. If being a law abiding citizen makes you a serf then I must be just like most Americans.

Yes so would most people, someone unarmed running away from you is not a threat.
Following the law does not necessarily make one a serf. Following laws designed to strip one of one's individual freedoms and natural rights while subjugating one's will to that of another would make one a serf. At the basest level, residents of the UK are "subjects" which historically is much closer to a serf than would be a "citizen". Nothing personal; my ancestors left the condition of serfs/subjects to come to a new land and work as a free people (many as farmers). Though their gains have been somewhat eroded by the international influence of countries with a more feudal history (Europe etal.) on the U.S. government, I really don't think we have sunk as low as those sorry conditions escaped by these ancestors (mine were mostly Irish, Scot, and English).

From Merriam Webster's dictionary:
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a member of a servile feudal class bound to the land and subject to the will of its owner.
For a more in-depth discussion of a feudal class, one could refer to the histories of many European countries from the time frame of the Middle Ages forward after the period of a more tribal existence had passed.


Threat level is a matter of opinion. There are legal opinions and personal opinions. It would be a matter that would end up in court; around here, I would doubt conviction for anything more serious than manslaughter, if that. I remember back in high school when a local Sheriff came to the school to discuss excessive window tinting and poor driving by our students, he answered a question about shooting a burglar as he left with burgled items or after beating the homeowners by strongly suggesting that none of us should tamper with the body until a deputy had arrived and reviewed the scene. Then, he advised, he or his deputies would help the homeowner drag the body back inside the home for photographs, if need be. Apparently, he didn't want an honest citizen to risk hurting their back by dragging a fat crook back inside their home to make the crook's death look more...confrontational.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:34 PM   #26
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http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5278638&page=1
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy
Neither source is exactly known for being firearms friendly.

Manta, I thought I should post this case for your review. This guy shot robbers of his neighbors' home. He has not been convicted of anything in connection with that shooting.

He took things a bit farther than I would personally want to, but I would not call him a criminal for what he did, maybe a bit overprotective of his neighbors' property or of the idea that a free man should be secure in his property.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:37 PM   #27
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Following the law does not necessarily make one a serf. Following laws designed to strip one of one's individual freedoms and natural rights while subjugating one's will to that of another would make one a serf
Americans have followed laws restricting firearms for years. Mag restrictions and lots of other restrictions. Not as much as other countries but still restrictions. What rights apart from less restrictions on firearms do Americans have that I don't. ? Your extra freedoms is an illusion you follow the laws handed down pay your taxes and follow all the other rules just like other countries.
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Threat level is a matter of opinion. There are legal opinions and personal opinions. It would be a matter that would end up in court; around here, I would doubt conviction for anything more serious than manslaughter,
That's where you live there are lots of states with different views on what constitutes self defence.

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I remember back in high school when a local Sheriff came to the school to discuss excessive window tinting and poor driving by our students, he answered a question about shooting a burglar as he left with burgled items or after beating the homeowners by strongly suggesting that none of us should tamper with the body until a deputy had arrived and reviewed the scene. Then, he advised, he or his deputies would help the homeowner drag the body back inside the home for photographs, if need be. Apparently, he didn't want an honest citizen to risk hurting their back by dragging a fat crook back inside their home to make the crook's death look more...confrontational.
All that tells me is that you need a new sheriff. They are supposed to uphold the law not break it or encourage others to do so. I don't see corrupt police as something to be proud of it makes them no better than the criminals.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:00 PM   #28
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Americans have followed laws restricting firearms laws for years. Mag restrictions and lots of other restrictions not as much as other countries but still restrictions. What rights apart from less restrictions on firearms. Do Americans have that I don't. ? Your extra freedoms is an illusion you follow the laws handed down pay your taxes and follow all the other rules just like other countries.
That's where you live there are lots of states with different views on what constitutes self defence.

All that tells me is that you need a new sheriff. They are supposed to uphold the law not break it or encourage others to do so. I don't see corrupt police as something to be proud of it makes them no better than the criminals.
Many Americans have followed such laws, but not all. Again, a serf follows any laws mandated, whereas a free man should choose not to follow laws he feels are unjust (protest). We are discussing firearms; if there is some other right of the UK residents that you feel Americans have been denied then please, state it. I must admit I do appreciate not having to refer to anyone in my government as a "lord"; that's a bit to close to "master" for my taste as it heralds back to the days of a even more feudal system with even fewer rights for our mutual ancestors.

There are different legal views and standings on self defense and property defense in different states; i'm generally satisfied with the ones in this state. I'm not aware of any states that are compared unfavorably (meaning less "free") to the situation in the UK. Though you could enlighten me if you have further information on such comparisons (perhaps California or New York, appropriately named)?

I think you and I have different definitions for corruption as it pertains to LEO's. I view "corrupt" LEO's as those willing to ignore a law for their own gain, not those who would consider the wider circumstances of a conflict and try to insure that the interests of responsible citizens were better protected than the interests of thieves or other criminals. That Sheriff has since retired, though I doubt his successor feels much differently.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:04 PM   #29
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If it salves your ego to believe us all (UK and US alike) to be "serfs" or "free", I won't be offended. Please, do not be offended by my pity of what is, in my opinion, an unacceptable level of government control in the UK. This country may well get to such a point before the government here is set straight, though I hope not.

I wish you and your countrymen more freedom and individual rights, as much as your people can enjoy.

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Old 09-14-2013, 12:14 AM   #30
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didn't we whoop the British? like twice!

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