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Old 05-12-2011, 06:53 PM   #41
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The police do the same thing. "Put your hands in the air and lay down on your stomach". I think it is perfectly reasonable to react the same way in a situation where police are not present and you are in fear for your life and safety of your family.

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Old 05-12-2011, 07:25 PM   #42
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Got this from Gun Space:

"This is a quote from a case in Virginia where one man retrieved his rifle (unloaded) when in the course of a legal action another man became aggressive, but did not touch or harm the rifle bearer. The rifle owner claimed a fear of harm and pointed the rifle at the upset person. The court held that the rifle owner was guilty of illegally brandishing a firearm.

'When it is said that a man may rightfully use as much force as is necessary for the protection of his person and property, it should be recollected that this rule is subject to this most important modification, that he shall not, except in extreme cases, endanger human life or do great bodily harm. It is not every right of person, and still less of property, that can lawfully be asserted, or every wrong that may rightfully be redressed by extreme remedies.

There is a recklessness-a wanton disregard of humanity and social duty in taking or endeavoring to take, the life of a fellow-being, in order to save one's self from a comparatively slight wrong, which is essentially wicked, and the law abhors. You may not kill, because you cannot otherwise effect your object, although the object sought to be effected is right. You can only kill to save life or limb, or prevent a great crime, or to accomplish a necessary public duty.'

The threat to use deadly force by brandishing a deadly weapon has long been considered an assault in many states including Virginia. It should ne noted that the same will hold inside your home, though in the case of an unknown intruder and absent other witnesses, the likelihood of your claim to reasonable fear of harm is almost sure to hold.

Virginia does have a 'castle doctrine,' but remember that there are limits--if you're trying to save $20 worth of property at the risk of a harmless drunk's life, you'll end up losing."

My remark--the best defense is no opposing witnesses.

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Old 05-13-2011, 02:23 PM   #43
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Well egghead,

I respectfully disagree.

If I have to choose between holding someone face down, bound;

and shooting them dead, I will choose taking my chances with

temporary restraint over killing them dead, if at all possible.

I, personally, have to answer to a higher court which convenes

24/7/365, my conscience.

My problem with the entire issue, for me, is waiting for hours, possibly,

with a gun pointed at some improperly restrained BG, who may decide to

bolt or put up a fight any moment, till the police arrive.

Or maybe I'm the only one who noticed LEOs generally

aren't overly concerned with our personal needs.

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Old 05-14-2011, 11:21 AM   #44
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Egghead, in the Virginia case you posted about the man who chose to point a gun at individuals who were not committing or attempting to commit a felony is totally different from what is being discussed here. There is a HUGE difference between a homeowner pointing a gun (it better be loaded) at one or more burglars in their home than a group of guys fighting.

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Old 05-14-2011, 11:44 AM   #45
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Default Waiting Hours for LE?

therewolf, I'm not what part of Florida you live in, but I highly doubt you'd have to wait more than a few minutes for LE to arrive ESPECIALLY once the 9-1-1 operator has been advised that you are holding burglary suspects at gun point. I can tell you from 21 years experience as a small town LEO and large county reserve deputy LE comes out of the wood work in droves when "gun" or "holding suspects at gun point" are mentioned.

I also completely agree with you about it being far better to hold a felony suspect at gun point until they can be taken into custody than shoot them IF at all possible. If a suspect runs away from you at the first sight of your gun, let them. Then call 9-1-1 to advise them of their description and what they tried to do....before they call 9-1-1 to report that YOU pulled or pointed a gun on or at THEM when all they were doing was minding their own business.

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Old 05-15-2011, 01:05 PM   #46
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My comment on witnesses was meant as a joke--perhaps a poor one.

I agree that the case I got from the other site was quite different from a person actually in the house. But what I thought was germane was the notes from the other legal scholars about assault of an inturder. The law here makes a distinction when it comes to the perceived threat--see the comment about not using lethal force to protect a trivial item. And note that brandishing a firearm is consider assault if the threat does not meet the level that some legal beagle--well removed from the situation--will consider high enough.

States with castle doctinres vary quite a bit in how that applies--some give the homeowner huge leeway; others will still second guess. Frankly, if someone is trying to leave the house after you confront them, you are probably best served to let them.

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Old 05-15-2011, 06:04 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davo45 View Post
therewolf, I'm not what part of Florida you live in, but I highly doubt you'd have to wait more than a few minutes for LE to arrive ESPECIALLY once the 9-1-1 operator has been advised that you are holding burglary suspects at gun point. I can tell you from 21 years experience as a small town LEO and large county reserve deputy LE comes out of the wood work in droves when "gun" or "holding suspects at gun point" are mentioned.

I also completely agree with you about it being far better to hold a felony suspect at gun point until they can be taken into custody than shoot them IF at all possible. If a suspect runs away from you at the first sight of your gun, let them. Then call 9-1-1 to advise them of their description and what they tried to do....before they call 9-1-1 to report that YOU pulled or pointed a gun on or at THEM when all they were doing was minding their own business.
I'm sorry, was I inconvenienced by some less than concerned LEOs in the

past? Kindly allow me to apologize for your discomfiture over this situation.

While I may say to 911 "holding at gunpoint", IF I'm doing to detain

ANYBODY, I want them bound and on the ground.

As to brandishing, what, exactly, in Florida, constitutes

"brandishing" in your locked home, behind closed doors, out of

public view?


My issue here is I don't want to shoot anyone while they are being held for the authorities.

If they aren't properly restrained, IMO it's irresponsible for anyone to assume a criminal

is just going to stand there till the cops arrive, however long it takes.
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Old 05-15-2011, 06:24 PM   #48
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For all of y'all that are a little uneasy about holding a criminal at gunpoint...and not shooting them....



Buy A Taser Gun




Then....






No more, or less, legal ramifications doing this, than just shooting them.

Next?

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Old 05-15-2011, 07:47 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteZaHut View Post
Wow, so many of you are pretty much saying you would commit murder if a bad guy was backing out of your house and showing no threat. And for the idea that if you don't shoot the bad guy, he could go enter some other house, you can't shoot someone based on the chance that he might do something bad, legally or morally. Some of you all need to rethink your morals and how you would handle certain situations of you want to be responsible gun owners.

When it comes down to it, you're right, protect yourself and your family, and that's it.
You call it murder, I call it defending your home. I dont care if he has his hands up, he is in MY home, and how do I know he doesnt have a pistol in his pocket or concealed somewhere that he didnt get the chance to pull?

And just because you shoot somebody in the back does NOT mean they are fleeing. If you live alone, you wake up in the middle of the night to a noise, go out your bedroom door and see a man that has just walked past and you shoot, he was not fleeing you just had the drop on him. What if he was holding you at gun point and he didnt know you had a pistol in your pocket
and he turned around long enough for whatever reason and you had a shot?
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Old 05-15-2011, 08:49 PM   #50
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I don't think restraining a BG is an option for me. Frankly, if you get that close to the perp, you're asking for a tussle resulting in your gun being taken from you and used on you and yours.
My thoughts... draw down on the invader and tell him to freeze, if he runs away, fine. If he makes any movement toward you, empty your gun in him. If he freezes, order him - hands up and face down, and tell him any attempt to get up, and you'll unload on him.
Of course, if I wake up with a BG in my bedroom, or my daughters bedroom, he's toast.
YMMV...

BTW, good discussion here. Thanks OP...

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