Habeas Corpus? We Don't Need No Stinkin' Habeas Corpus! - Page 7
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:07 PM   #61
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Over the past 40 years, we have seen a whole lot of laws designed to keep us "safe" at the expense of our liberty and a bunch of bureaucracies have been created in that time like the EPA (1970), Department of Energy (1979), and the Department of Education (1979) that have levied policies that effectively kill our liberty.

It's not that one piece of legislation will one day flip things completely around all by itself. The incremental nature of government is to encroach slowly over time, building precedent and getting people used to not having liberty until there comes a time when any sort of legislation can be passed.

The trick is (well, WAS) to be completely against any and all laws and policies, however innocuous they seemed at the time, that gave the federal government power it does not legally have.

As for the legislation referenced in this thread, I don't think any declaration or authorization of war has been declared against AQ. Maybe it has. If so, fine. But "terror" is a tactic, not an entity or a nation and we cannot incarcerate people indefinitely as long as we have this goofy euphemism called the "Global War On Terror" raging. The potential for abuse is obvious and in light of what has happened in just the last few years it would seem absurd to say "<fill in the blank> could never happen in the U.S.". What we have seen happen very recently are exactly the sorts of things people 40 years ago would have said "that could never happen in the U.S.".

ANYTHING can happen ANYWHERE and if we don't take a stand and block bad bills before becoming law then we invite the worst humanity has to offer.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:21 PM   #62
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Over the past 40 years, we have seen a whole lot of laws designed to keep us "safe" at the expense of our liberty and a bunch of bureaucracies have been created in that time like the EPA (1970), Department of Energy (1979), and the Department of Education (1979) that have levied policies that effectively kill our liberty.

It's not that one piece of legislation will one day flip things completely around all by itself. The incremental nature of government is to encroach slowly over time, building precedent and getting people used to not having liberty until there comes a time when any sort of legislation can be passed.

The trick is (well, WAS) to be completely against any and all laws and policies, however innocuous they seemed at the time, that gave the federal government power it does not legally have.

As for the legislation referenced in this thread, I don't think any declaration or authorization of war has been declared against AQ. Maybe it has. If so, fine. But "terror" is a tactic, not an entity or a nation and we cannot incarcerate people indefinitely as long as we have this goofy euphemism called the "Global War On Terror" raging. The potential for abuse is obvious and in light of what has happened in just the last few years it would seem absurd to say "<fill in the blank> could never happen in the U.S.". What we have seen happen very recently are exactly the sorts of things people 40 years ago would have said "that could never happen in the U.S.".

ANYTHING can happen ANYWHERE and if we don't take a stand and block bad bills before becoming law then we invite the worst humanity has to offer.
Totally agree!!!
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:56 PM   #63
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Over the past 40 years, we have seen a whole lot of laws designed to keep The potential for abuse is obvious and in light of what has happened in just the last few years it would seem absurd to say "<fill in the blank> could never happen in the U.S.". What we have seen happen very recently are exactly the sorts of things people 40 years ago would have said "that could never happen in the U.S.".

ANYTHING can happen ANYWHERE and if we don't take a stand and block bad bills before becoming law then we invite the worst humanity has to offer.
Read Glen Becks "The Overton Window".
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:34 PM   #64
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I submit that the terrorists have already won the war on terror. In one fell swoop they have managed to convince us to let our government erode our liberty and way of life to a level never thought possible (for our own good of course). As soon as the "Homeland Security Act" passed the rapid down hill slide began and hasn't lost a bit of momentum. I am afraid.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:02 PM   #65
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I submit that the terrorists have already won the war on terror. In one fell swoop they have managed to convince us to let our government erode our liberty and way of life to a level never thought possible (for our own good of course). As soon as the "Homeland Security Act" passed the rapid down hill slide began and hasn't lost a bit of momentum. I am afraid.
I think you're giving the terrorists more credit than they are due. They're not manipulating our government. Our government is manipulating us by exploiting the concept of terrorism against us.

Let's think about the word "terror" for a minute. You can either be afraid of something you understand or of something you don't understand. If you can identify who or what something is that you're afraid of, you have an advantage because you can take steps to deal with it.

Who are "terrorists"? Do we understand them? Do we know who they are? We are told they are from every nation and that most have given themselves to radical Islam, but we are told in the same breath that most Muslims are peaceful. That means we can't label Islam as our enemy because that would give us something to understand and something we could fight.

Our own government has told us that we can't understand them; we can't define who terrorists are. That means we can't fight them; we can only react after they attack us. How many times have we been told "We will be attacked again. It's a matter of when, not if."?

That makes many people leery of all Muslims (Herman Cain's comments spring to mind) and more tolerant of government usurping power and authority over us to keep us safe from those "terrorists" whoever they are.

Let's go back to my previous post about incrementalist government. 40 years ago, kids played sports and there were winners and losers. There was a best team and a worst team. There was a best player and a worst player. They kept score. Today, many kids teams don't keep score so as not to bruise their precious darlings' self-esteem. Teachers marked stuff wrong on your paper in bold red pen. Not anymore. Kids got outside and were physically active, played with BB guns and rode bikes without helmets. Not anymore. Adults have been under attack, too. We talk about Katrina "victims". NO! They're survivors not victims! A victim is the recipient of a deliberate attack and hurricanes aren't deliberately let loose by some people against others. But being a survivor gives you strength while being a victim makes you weak.

Look at the anti-gun groups. Why are so many millions of Americans terrified of inanimate objects? Why do these supposedly intelligent and well-educated people proudly admit total ignorance about firearms and call for them being banned entirely? Isn't that the sort of thing a three-year-old child would do? It's totally irrational.

These ideas are in our schools, our media, our celebrities, our language, our culture - it's everywhere, and it has been concocted and promoted by government. This nation has been emasculated and infantilized in the last few decades and that's one reason why we tolerate the government we have today.

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Old 12-04-2011, 06:00 PM   #66
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I understand what you are saying, however, there are groups of people that despise our way of life and government policies. As with any "war" the sole purpose is to change or influence politics. My argument is that they have succeeded in that objective to a large extent. The complete "knee jerk" reaction to 911 was supposed to impress those groups but instead it showed the world just how unprepared we were to respond to that type of attack and the threat of it happening again.

All for the sake of safety and security the majority of the people of this country have allowed it's government to erode our rights as defined by the constitution. Maybe they thought it was temporary, just until the "war on terror" is over because all wars eventually come to an end, don't they? This is not a war, there are no common politics of the so called enemy for us to change. Thousands of lives and billions of dollars, total disregard for our founding doctrine, they accomplished their objective.

You are right, there is much ignorance about guns and gun control. Perhaps the simplest way to explain why John Q public will so easily go along with bans on guns is because they think it is a sure fire way to tell the good guys from the bad guys. If you ban gun ownership for the population, anyone that is not a cop or in the military and has a gun is a bad guy, done. Very simple. Now don't you feel safer?

I wish I could have been there to hear Patrick Henry's speech in 1775. I think it would do every American good to at least read the last part:

"Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry 23 March 1775
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:34 PM   #67
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My opinion is that you can't be prepared to prevent a terrorist attack. It only takes a very basic understanding of chemistry to blow something up. Even though they lock the cabin of planes now. It's still not difficult to sneak a few chemicals, a lighter, and a shank aboard a plane. Remember in the original heists they used folding pocket knives.

I did the math, a plane full of people could blow up every day and it would still be safer to fly than drive. No fear here.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by bkt View Post
I think you're giving the terrorists more credit than they are due. They're not manipulating our government. Our government is manipulating us by exploiting the concept of terrorism against us.

Let's think about the word "terror" for a minute. You can either be afraid of something you understand or of something you don't understand. If you can identify who or what something is that you're afraid of, you have an advantage because you can take steps to deal with it.

Who are "terrorists"? Do we understand them? Do we know who they are? We are told they are from every nation and that most have given themselves to radical Islam, but we are told in the same breath that most Muslims are peaceful. That means we can't label Islam as our enemy because that would give us something to understand and something we could fight.

Our own government has told us that we can't understand them; we can't define who terrorists are. That means we can't fight them; we can only react after they attack us. How many times have we been told "We will be attacked again. It's a matter of when, not if."?

That makes many people leery of all Muslims (Herman Cain's comments spring to mind) and more tolerant of government usurping power and authority over us to keep us safe from those "terrorists" whoever they are.

Let's go back to my previous post about incrementalist government. 40 years ago, kids played sports and there were winners and losers. There was a best team and a worst team. There was a best player and a worst player. They kept score. Today, many kids teams don't keep score so as not to bruise their precious darlings' self-esteem. Teachers marked stuff wrong on your paper in bold red pen. Not anymore. Kids got outside and were physically active, played with BB guns and rode bikes without helmets. Not anymore. Adults have been under attack, too. We talk about Katrina "victims". NO! They're survivors not victims! A victim is the recipient of a deliberate attack and hurricanes aren't deliberately let loose by some people against others. But being a survivor gives you strength while being a victim makes you weak.

Look at the anti-gun groups. Why are so many millions of Americans terrified of inanimate objects? Why do these supposedly intelligent and well-educated people proudly admit total ignorance about firearms and call for them being banned entirely? Isn't that the sort of thing a three-year-old child would do? It's totally irrational.

These ideas are in our schools, our media, our celebrities, our language, our culture - it's everywhere, and it has been concocted and promoted by government. This nation has been emasculated and infantilized in the last few decades and that's one reason why we tolerate the government we have today.
Very well said. I couldn't agree more.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:59 PM   #69
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The sad thing is, our beloved nation, complete with ATF

"Federales", has digressed within one generation into

the kind of corrupt Banana Republic we all used to

laugh at and ridicule such a short while ago.

Does that make us the Magnificent Seven?

Most of those guys died, remember?
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