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Old 05-19-2012, 01:53 AM   #31
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I remain convinced that crime rates are determined by issues other than gun laws. Compare Utah's crime rate to Arizona. Both states have similar gun laws but Utah has a much lower crime rate.
How transitory is your population? In Arizona few people have immediate family members in the State and as a result it is much easer to fall into alcohol and drug abuse. How well or poorly educated is your public? How poor are they?
I have often suspected that much of Arizona's crime problem is directly related to drug smuggling and the cartels that do it. f ou extracted business related crimes our stats would look much better.
Utah is one of those rare places where almost everyone drinks the same koolaide and gets along pretty good. It's sort of like the Vatican there, only bigger.

Not necessarily a good comparison to make with other ordinary states in the USA.

Most Arizonans that I know directly attribute ALL their crime to the Mexican cartels using them as a transportation avenue. And it may very well be.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:21 AM   #32
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I live in Belgium,and I started shooting guns 40 years ago. At the time, I just had to pay a visit to my local police chief and he would write me a gun permit immediately, because he knew me well. Now, 40 years and a huge shift to the political left later, I belong to an endangered species.

If I want to buy a gun, I have to prove that I'm a long-term member of a shooting club; I have to do a theoretical and practical exam, my MD has to declare that I'm physically and psychologically fit to handle a firearm, my wife has to sign a consent that she agrees with me buying a weapon, I need to prove that I have not had any conviction in the past, I have to sign a form where I declare that I will keep my guns in a safe, and separate from the ammo; I then have to apply for a licence with the government, and pay some $140 to open a 'case'. Then I have to wait for at least 3 months and if I'm lucky, I can go and buy the gun.

I cannot buy any full auto's nor guns with a barrel equal to or shorter than 3 inches, I have to transport the gun with a trigger-lock and separate from the ammo. Under no circumstance can I carry the gun on my person. Every time I go the range, I have to register my visit and note the guns I used that day. If I even commit the slightest infraction or violation of any law, I lose all my licenses and my guns.

The situation is getting more and more ridiculous, because every time some nitwit shoots someone, even with an unlicensed gun, the law comes down hard on us, law-obiding citizens and they invent new restrictions. Now there's talk about having to leave the guns at the range, and not taking them home any more.

All this because the general public in this sissie-country is against guns and press and politicians join them. Shooting used to be a lot of fun when I started out 40 years ago. Now we have to pray every day that there will not be another moron that starts shooting anywhere in the country, or it's finished for us.

I wish there was a way free countries like the US could help us, be it just by lobbying with our government, to have a guarantee for democracy or whatever. But something needs to be done, cause we are sitting ducks as it is now.
My condolences as well and as BKT said, there are similar laws in place here in some places, not all, but some. We can most defintiely sympathize with your plight as our basic human right to life is undermined every day.

Just like you said, some nitwit shoots up the place and 100 million law abiding citizens are held accountable...hogwash.

As of now, we are still a free country but it takes a great deal of effort to remain that way, a lot more than it should.
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Old 05-19-2012, 11:14 AM   #33
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"Natural rights" is a category of philosophy that is hard to define.

In modern times, we often think of "human rights."

The UN and the USA currently attempt to hold all nations to a high standard of human rights, on the premise that any nation that upholds their own peoples' human rights is less likely to invade and violate another nation's peoples' human rights as well.

This is a modern theory. It sounds good. It is popular. It may or may not be true.

As to what "rights" any of us has, individually, that seems to all depend on where you live, and how lucky you are.

For instance, think of someone who has been falsely accused, falsely identified, and falsely imprisoned or falsely executed. Obviously, he had no natural rights at all. Society took them all away.

Ultimately it takes a lot of money to defend your rights, when necessary. The poor therefore have few natural rights.

I think the only right anyone really has is the right to fight or the right to give up. And either way, you could lose, no matter what happens.

We each should be able to defend ourselves at all times. Sometimes however it does little good. Sometimes you can be outgunned, by false accusors, by the legal system, by the police/sheriffs, even by the military for instance if they draft you and send you half way across the world to be shot at by indigenous peoples who do not want you there.
By definition, a right is something innate; you just have it. Something a government gives you can never be a right. Anything that is given to you can be taken away. No rights are bestowed or granted by any government. Our Bill of Rights does not grant us anything. It just acknowledges existing rights we all have and prohibits the government from interfering with them. Everyone everywhere has these rights. But rights can be denied by force by a power that has a monopoly on force.

All living things have the natural right to defend themselves. It isn't strictly a human thing.

In the context used today, human rights are things governments try to define, set bounds to, and constrain. As such, I don't really trust the concept. Particularly if the U.N. is involved.

Don't conflate a screwed up judicial system that routinely ignores our rights with the fact that we all have those rights.

You're right - we should always be able to defend ourselves at all times. But as we see, laws exist that prevent us from being able to do this and those laws are backed by entities that have a monopoly on force: police, military, etc.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:26 PM   #34
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Trust me our problems come in all shades. Blaming all of Arizona's problems on Cartels is like blaming all Of New York or New Jersey's crime on Italian Mobsters. It is factually in error and can lead to a false sense of security. Take a look at the list of AZ Death Row inmates for a rainbow night mare :http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/photo-gallery-arizona-death-row-inmates/collection_b53466b4-686b-11df-8171-001cc4c002e0.html or http://www.azcorrections.gov/inmate_datasearch/newDeathRow.aspx

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Old 05-19-2012, 05:43 PM   #35
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By definition, a right is something innate; you just have it. Something a government gives you can never be a right. Anything that is given to you can be taken away. No rights are bestowed or granted by any government. Our Bill of Rights does not grant us anything. It just acknowledges existing rights we all have and prohibits the government from interfering with them. Everyone everywhere has these rights. But rights can be denied by force by a power that has a monopoly on force.

All living things have the natural right to defend themselves. It isn't strictly a human thing.

In the context used today, human rights are things governments try to define, set bounds to, and constrain. As such, I don't really trust the concept. Particularly if the U.N. is involved.

Don't conflate a screwed up judicial system that routinely ignores our rights with the fact that we all have those rights.

You're right - we should always be able to defend ourselves at all times. But as we see, laws exist that prevent us from being able to do this and those laws are backed by entities that have a monopoly on force: police, military, etc.
You too are right, BKT, laws exist (in NY and Calif) that prevent us from being able to defend ourselves. NY and Calif are two of the worst places like that. Add also Mass ILL Md and DC and the list is then almost complete.

Bad laws. Simply a continuation of the Tombstone Ariz experiment, of no guns in town allowed. Then only outlaws have the guns.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:48 PM   #36
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Trust me our problems come in all shades. Blaming all of Arizona's problems on Cartels is like blaming all Of New York or New Jersey's crime on Italian Mobsters. It is factually in error and can lead to a false sense of security. Take a look at the list of AZ Death Row inmates for a rainbow night mare :http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/photo-gallery-arizona-death-row-inmates/collection_b53466b4-686b-11df-8171-001cc4c002e0.html or http://www.azcorrections.gov/inmate_datasearch/newDeathRow.aspx
Interesting photo line-up.

Some of them look like they are not even cognizant of the rest of the universe existing out there around them. I guess that is a symptom of narciscism.

One looks like Mike Judd's character But-Head.

A lot have a droopy eye, usually their left.

I get a kick out of the ones who smiled for the camera. These must be the practical jokers.

The babes who killed either their spouses or their kid(s) are the creepiest. Beauty with a raging beast inside.
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