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Old 10-31-2011, 04:35 AM   #11
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If you were the original purchaser, of course they could trace it to you. All it takes is for the FFL to not destroy the 4473 after the retention period.

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Old 10-31-2011, 02:35 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by PeteZaHut View Post
I have heard one argument against gun registration being that if there was ever a takeover of the government, the bad guys would know which citizens to disarm. In VA, you don't have to register your firearms, but when you buy one, you still fill out a little form where you put your name and the weapon's serial #. Who has access to that? Also, if you have a concealed carry permit, is that pretty much like having a registered firearm?
Some of the means the government may have of tracking down those who have guns would require a tremendous amount of foot work, like collecting the 4473 and gun sales log books. If the government is going to confiscate guns, they probably will not be too concerned about the legal aspects or the Constitution. Most likely anyone with a CCW, CHP, or whatever it is called in your state, have some guns, so that would be a useful list. Your NRA membership would be a good resource. Your MOS in the military would be a useful list. Your possible membership in other groups such as the GOA or your state rifle and pistol association, or state and local gun clubs. If you are a security guard, you are probably fingerprinted and listed in your state. The list and leads are many.

Most likely it is not something that would happen overnight (although possible) and more likely a little bit at a time, they steadily creep in with this requirement and that, like they have been trying for years.

I'm not to worried about it, I'm registered and listed everywhere. But I know those who are, and the only for sure way is to completely fall off the radar. That is a pretty strange life style in this day and time.

.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:46 PM   #13
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This is from yesterday's paper. I realize it's about the FBI and not the BATFE, but it illustrates some of what I've been saying.

Viewpoints: Rein in FBI as it again tries to assume role of secret police
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By Jay Feldman
Special to The Bee
Published: Sunday, Oct. 30, 2011 - 12:00 am | Page 5E
Last Modified: Sunday, Oct. 30, 2011 - 10:06 am

Earlier this year, the New York Times reported that the FBI had revised its "Domestic Investigations and Operations Guide," which serves as a handbook for the bureau's 14,000 agents. The amended manual, which supersedes the original December 2008 edition, is one more step in the FBI's ongoing transformation since 9/11, as it morphs from a law enforcement agency into a domestic intelligence agency.

According to Kathleen Wright of the bureau's Washington, D.C., Office of Public Affairs, the new guide went into effect on Oct. 15.

The first version of the DIOG, which was controversial in its own right, allowed FBI agents to conduct surveillance, enlist informants and interview friends of suspects, all without a supervisor's approval. Many privacy advocates felt the wide-ranging surveillance powers it authorized would inevitably lead to abuses and have a negative effect on ethnic and religious minorities.

When the original DIOG was issued, Michael German, a former FBI agent and now an American Civil Liberties Union attorney, was quoted in the Washington Post as saying, "It is an extraordinarily broad grant of power to an agency that has not proven it uses its power in an appropriate manner."

The revised guide relaxes the rules even further, granting agents significantly broader powers, including the authority to administer lie detector tests, pick through people's household garbage and use surveillance teams to investigate "suspicious" individuals – all without a search warrant, the opening of a formal investigation, or even any concrete evidence of prior wrongdoing on the part of the "suspect." These procedures may be carried out under the lowest category of FBI inquiry, known as an "assessment."

It is important to note that even if the targeted individual or organization is found innocent, the information collected in the course of these assessments is nevertheless retained. Of the more than 82,000 assessments opened between March 2009 and March 2011, only 4 percent (3,315) were carried to the next level of investigation, leaving the information amassed on the other 96 percent (over 79,000) – who had been cleared of any misconduct – still available in the FBI's databases.

What these numbers tell us is that the overwhelming percentage of FBI assessments lead nowhere and therefore raise the concern that the bureau is casting far too wide a net with its investigatory procedures. Moreover, of those assessments that do become "preliminary" investigations, only a small percentage subsequently become "full" investigations, and of those that do, only a similarly small percentage result in criminal charges.

The original DIOG required agents to open an inquiry before searching a commercial or law-enforcement database for information on a particular individual. Under the new rules, agents may conduct database searches without even opening an assessment, so in the vast majority of cases – again, witness the great percentage of inquiries dropped for lack of incriminating findings – no record of these searches will exist.

This opens the door to potential abuses of power, making it more difficult to discover if an agent has improperly used one or more of these searches for personal reasons.

The new freewheeling database searches call to mind the FBI's earlier use of "national security letters," which permitted agents to obtain an individual's telephone records and other data without a search warrant, a practice that was curtailed in 2007 after an inspector general found it was commonly being misused.

In its centurylong history, the FBI has repeatedly tended to take on the role of a secret police. Two attorneys general – Harlan Fiske Stone in 1924 and Edward Levi in 1976 – found the bureau's widespread, covert surveillance and investigation of civilians to be so egregious that they issued guidelines aimed at checking these behaviors. Unfortunately, in both cases the guidelines were chipped away and eventually completely eroded over time.

Now, with the new "Domestic Investigations and Operations Guide," the bureau is inching uncomfortably close to once again taking on the role of a secret police. FBI spokesperson Wright maintains the new guide is "fine tuning, not any major change." But given the bureau's history, every incremental increase in FBI power must be regarded as portentous.

It is time for Attorney General Eric Holder to step forward and rein in the FBI, as his predecessors Stone and Levi did. For once, however, it would be good policy to check the bureau's power before the abuses spin out of control.

© Copyright The Sacramento Bee. All rights reserved.

Read more: Viewpoints: Rein in FBI as it again tries to assume role of secret police - Sacramento Opinion - Sacramento Editorial | Sacramento Bee

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Old 10-31-2011, 02:53 PM   #14
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The Dealer maintains the 4473s for a period of 20 years, unless the business closes- and then they are sent to BATFE. Yes, BATFE CAN request a trace on a specific firearm from the dealer.

I am a life member NRA, member Va Citizens Defense League, hold a FFL as a Collector, have a CHL, and 5 different explosives licenses, have NRC access to Nuclear facilities- along with a military security clearance. I have GOT to be in more databases than you can shake a stick at-

But of course, that was BEFORE that HORRIBLE boating accident........

boating-accident.jpg

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Old 10-31-2011, 02:54 PM   #15
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I had a Charter Arms Bulldog traced back to me after 35 years. If you don't think these records are being kept and used by the Feds you are living on the Yellow Brick Road.
This is the guy I'm believing.
I also think uncle sam would have one hell of a time rounding up all the guns we have on the books. For however many legal guns there are, how many illegal are there? And how many more are gonna be deamed illegal as soon as they try taking them? I'm not just handing over the guns I have. Some are family heirlooms. Would you just give away something your dead grandfather gave you? Didn't think so.
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:57 PM   #16
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It is time for Attorney General Eric Holder to step forward and rein in the FBI
Just spit coffee all over the desk.

YEAH- like THAT is gonna happen! Whoever wrote that is proof of the need for drug screening programs!
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:00 PM   #17
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Yeah, I chuckled at that part too. But the actual meat of it really bothers me.

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Old 10-31-2011, 06:11 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by EagleSix View Post
Some of the means the government may have of tracking down those who have guns would require a tremendous amount of foot work, like collecting the 4473 and gun sales log books. If the government is going to confiscate guns, they probably will not be too concerned about the legal aspects or the Constitution. Most likely anyone with a CCW, CHP, or whatever it is called in your state, have some guns, so that would be a useful list. Your NRA membership would be a good resource. Your MOS in the military would be a useful list. Your possible membership in other groups such as the GOA or your state rifle and pistol association, or state and local gun clubs. If you are a security guard, you are probably fingerprinted and listed in your state. The list and leads are many.

Your MOS in the military would be a useful list.
Indeed. And based on that military specialty MOS, they will be the first ones on the top of that list to disarm. Members wonder why I personally do not post pictures or the actual pictures of all the firearms, "cough"..."cough"... I no longer have because I sold them all to "Steve."

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I'm not to worried about it, I'm registered and listed everywhere. But I know those who are, and the only for sure way is to completely fall off the radar. That is a pretty strange life style in this day and time..
Strange, but doable.
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Old 10-31-2011, 06:28 PM   #19
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If you were the original purchaser, of course they could trace it to you. All it takes is for the FFL to not destroy the 4473 after the retention period.
If face-to-face sales in your state are illegal, that's true. But in most states they're legal. So you can buy a gun one day and sell it two weeks later in a ftf sale. 4473's don't trace anything to anyone.
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Old 11-01-2011, 01:43 AM   #20
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So you can buy a gun one day and sell it two weeks later in a ftf sale. 4473's don't trace anything to anyone.
Yup; pretty much as I said in post #7.
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