Gun Modifications in Court - Page 7
You are Unregistered, please register to use all of the features of FirearmsTalk.com!    
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Legal and Activism >

Gun Modifications in Court


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-20-2013, 05:31 PM   #61
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: The Free State of Winston, AL
Posts: 3,538
Liked 2344 Times on 1394 Posts
Likes Given: 1283

Default

Do whatever you must do, just be right when you do it.
__________________
An armed society is not always a polite society, but it is a free and safe society!
Self Defense is an absolute and natural right!
Keep your head down and your powder dry!
JimRau is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2013, 04:51 PM   #62
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
wittmeba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: The state for Lovers
Posts: 1,097
Liked 576 Times on 325 Posts
Likes Given: 722

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davva360 View Post
Having watched the Zimmerman trial i believe they will try to use anything they can. Trigger pull was discussed and whether it was "standard".

The fact they tested the trigger pull is an indication to me they would have tried to use it against him if they could.

Type of trigger ie SA versus DA and whether being DA was a passive safety feature was also discussed during the trial.

I don't remember whether the gun being loaded was discussed but I bet it was.

There may not be a precedent and in my opinion it should not make a difference but I would not want to give them anything to use against me and would leave the trigger in my carry gun stock.

Just pick a gun with a trigger you can shoot well out of the box and the issue is totally moot.
The Fish case is a good example of what the prosecutor wants to include and equally important what they DON'T what to include and keep from the Jurors. Look at the amount of information that was hidden from the Jurors that was vital to the retrial and success of Not Guilty. The significance of the gun itself became trivial but the condition of Grant Kuenzli became most important. What a major switch of interest.
__________________
NRA Member - Over 5,000,000 strong!
Criminals don't discriminate. They will attack anywhere!

~ Holsters ~

Never forget these important words:
We the People...
America, take back your country!
wittmeba is offline  
alsaqr Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2013, 05:10 PM   #63
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
wittmeba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: The state for Lovers
Posts: 1,097
Liked 576 Times on 325 Posts
Likes Given: 722

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason609 View Post
The point you are missing is - there is a large amount of pretrial stuff going on, before the jury gets involved.

If a judge excludes certain testimony or evidence (from either side) the jury won't hear it, unless you are dealing with an unethical lawyer.
I believe what you are referring is more Procedural Rules than facts and details. I don't think a judge will tell an attorney "Don't mention the trigger job this guy had performed".

Much can be learned about your reference from the Fish case.

In summary I think this in regards to the OP's comment. I fully agree with AA. (I posted in another thread too). I don't think anyone can cite a law but that doesn't mean you are excused of having to defend a trigger mod or any other alteration to your gun. It is all what the prosecution can make of it in their favor.
__________________
NRA Member - Over 5,000,000 strong!
Criminals don't discriminate. They will attack anywhere!

~ Holsters ~

Never forget these important words:
We the People...
America, take back your country!

Last edited by wittmeba; 11-13-2013 at 05:20 PM.
wittmeba is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2013, 04:14 AM   #64
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Mason609's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Quincy,MA
Posts: 1,842
Liked 921 Times on 579 Posts
Likes Given: 4839

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wittmeba View Post
I believe what you are referring is more Procedural Rules than facts and details. I don't think a judge will tell an attorney "Don't mention the trigger job this guy had performed".

Much can be learned about your reference from the Fish case.

In summary I think this in regards to the OP's comment. I fully agree with AA. (I posted in another thread too). I don't think anyone can cite a law but that doesn't mean you are excused of having to defend a trigger mod or any other alteration to your gun. It is all what the prosecution can make of it in their favor.
It's not just Procedural Rules, but also facts and details - that's what pre-trial evidentiary hearings are all about.

The prosecution can't just introduce evidence during the course of the trial - in court. Any new evidence that comes up, must be submitted without the jury present, so the judge can rule on whether it is admissible or not. The ONLY exception is if the evidence is going to be used to rebut direct testimony from the defendant.

Judges will also listen to the "experts" (also without the jury present) to determine whether or not the "trigger job" is relevant to establishing premeditation or any other criminal intent. If the judge deems the expert testimony to not prove it, then yes, the judge will tell the prosecutor that he/she can not bring it up.

Unless you have a crap defense attorney, you'll be fine.

I feel that many of you actually don't know the process. No, I'm not an attorney, but I did work for one. One important thing I did learn is that most of the important stuff happens outside of the trial, when the jury is not present.
__________________
Insert witty comment here......


Veritas Aequitas

Vincit Omnia Veritas

Vincere est Vivere
Mason609 is offline  
3
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2013, 01:04 PM   #65
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: SW OK
Posts: 5,053
Liked 2616 Times on 1442 Posts
Likes Given: 4148

Default

Quote:
One important thing I did learn is that most of the important stuff happens outside of the trial, when the jury is not present.

^^^^^^This!!!^^^^^^

The Fish case is a great example of what can go wrong in a righteous shooting case. The judge and the prosecutors came together to rob Fish of his civil rights. The trial was a long media circus.


The judge in the Fish case refused to allow testimony concerning previous violent encounters with the late perp, Grant Keunzli, and his dogs. Dog lovers and friends of Keunzli came out of the woodwork to testify what a great guy he was.

The prosecutor should have been disbarred for his misconduct in the Fish case. The prosecutor's office pressured the police to remove the lead detective on the case because the guy was not telling the prosecutors what they wanted to hear.

Quote:
On June 14, 2006, after a two month trial, the jury in this case returned a verdict of guilty to the charge of murder, second degree, a class one felony. Because of both trial and pretrial rulings made by the Court, and prejudicial actions, policies and decisions implemented before the trial by the prosecutor, the defendant Fish did not receive a fair trial. For the reasons set forth hereafter, the Court should enter an order granting a new trial or, in the alternative, set aside the verdict and enter a finding of "not guilty."

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................................


III. PROSECUTORIAL MISCONDUCT

Near the beginning of these proceedings, defendant moved to disqualify the Coconino County Attorney's Office from prosecuting this case because of prosecutorial misconduct directed against Detective Scott Feagan. At the time, it was alleged that the actions of Mike Lessler and Roberta McVickers, in seeking Scott Feagan's ouster as lead investigator and later pressing for criminal charges against Feagan, had created a chilling effect on the search for truth and constituted a grievous deviation of the prosecutor's responsibilities to do justice. The extent of this prosecutorial misconduct was unknown until May 24, 2006, the last day of trial. Detective Cornish admitted under oath the extent of the prosecutorial misconduct. Cornish first admitted that one of the primary investigative functions of the Coconino County Sheriff’s Department was to thoroughly investigate the history, background and characters of both the decedent and shooter in this confrontation. Detective Cornish testified:

Q. You agree, do you not, Detective Cornish, that in this investigation, the responsibility of law enforcement is to find whatever evidence is out there, whether it helps or hurts the prosecution? A. Sure. Q. And that part of the investigative responsibility of an investigator would be to look at the evidence at the scene and investigate the history and background of the people involved? A. Yes

On the final day of trial, Detective Cornish admitted that he had been instructed to deviate from this investigative standard by the Coconino County Attorney’s office and to specifically abstain from any investigative pursuit that would have reflect unfavorably on Grant Kuenzli. Having seen the heavy hand of the prosecutors in action with Detective Feagan, Detective Cornish had little choice. This directive from the prosecutor’s is contained in Detective Cornish’s trial testimony. After admitting that he had purposely failed to follow up on leads that could have led to damaging evidence against Kuenzli (and exculpatory information involving Harold Fish), he testified:

Q. In other words, for whatever reason, was it clear to you that information that may prove damaging to Grant Kuenzli, you were directed not to go there and not to look for that type of information? A. Yes

See State v. Minnitt,____Ariz. ____, 55 P. 3d 774 (2002); Pool v. Superior Court, 139 Ariz. 98, 677 P. 2d 261 (1984) where cases were dismissed with prejudice based upon prosecutorial misconduct. The prosecution has been guilty of misconduct under Rule 24(c)(2), Arizona Rules of Criminal Procedure. The memorandum previously cited in the defendant’s motion to disqualify the Coconino County Attorney’s office is incorporated by reference.
[/QUOTE]

Anyone who really cares about the Fish case and justice owes it to themselves to read this one:


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1841870/posts

Thankfully, this stuff seldom happens.

Last edited by alsaqr; 11-14-2013 at 01:27 PM.
alsaqr is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2013, 12:22 AM   #66
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
DeltaF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Deep South USA
Posts: 3,206
Liked 2452 Times on 1342 Posts
Likes Given: 336

Default

Please note that this ruling was REVERSED due to the prosecutorial misconduct. If you are up against a crooked prosecutor and a crooked judge, there is no help for you whether you used a rubber band gun or an RPG until you get to the appeals process.
__________________
"...it is ...ALIVE!!!"
DeltaF is offline  
alsaqr Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2013, 04:20 AM   #67
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Solon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: In the shadow of Los Angeles, Kalifornia
Posts: 37
Liked 2 Times on 2 Posts
Likes Given: 35

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7point62 View Post
You could kill an attacker with a frying pan and a prosecutor would find a way to accuse you of using excessive force. You're f*cked if you do and you're f*cked if you don't, so you might as well pack what you want and learn what constitutes a threat...because ultimately, it's going to boil down to circumstances.
LOL..."Mr. Smith, why did you use a 12" skillet instead of an 8" pan?" Prosecutor points dramatically at the accused..."A CAST IRON, FRYING PAN!!!"
Jury gasps audibly.
__________________
I hit it...didn't I?
Solon is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 06:11 PM   #68
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
TheSadPanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: St. Louis,Missouri
Posts: 1,480
Liked 488 Times on 330 Posts
Likes Given: 187

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solon
LOL..."Mr. Smith, why did you use a 12" skillet instead of an 8" pan?" Prosecutor points dramatically at the accused..."A CAST IRON, FRYING PAN!!!" Jury gasps audibly.
It was the version with the extended handle too. Now we know she was looking for trouble!
__________________
"You know what happens to men who go looking for blood? They find it." - Kind Old Man
TheSadPanda is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 07:52 PM   #69
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Steel_Talon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Cochise County,AZ
Posts: 1,766
Liked 990 Times on 653 Posts
Likes Given: 1274

Default

Re Fish.... Like I've posted before Everything can and will be brought up to bolster the prosecutions case.... They are there to win it.... Some have no problems with to win at all costs.

The prosecutor did in fact introduce the fact that he used a very powerful caliber "10mm" and she (assistant) also challenged Fish on his Black Belt earned in Karate he should of used his skills other than his gun.... Given he earned it as a younger man who is now (during court) a man in his 60's.....LOL.... This was just a couple of issues against the metric ton of crap that was put forth on Fish.......

10 year sentence for defending himself
1/2 million dollars to defend himself (retired high school Spanish teacher, father of seven)
after his sentence was overturned Fish dies of cancer after his release from prison.
It took it took the passing of SB1449 to start the ball rolling for his release.


So as always my thoughts are.. I will defend those that are mine, those that I'm in charge of, those who call me brother, and myself with lethal deadly force.. That will never change about me. But I like factory ammo, and very limited mods on my carry pistols..... And am willing to be incarcerated if so be it.....
__________________
'Steel cuts flesh / steel cuts bone / steel does not cut steel.'

Become steel or get cut.
Steel_Talon is offline  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2013, 11:46 PM   #70
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 614
Liked 325 Times on 194 Posts
Likes Given: 517

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel_Talon View Post
All things will be considered in court, if the prosecution deems it to be advantageous to successful prosecution. From ammo. to caliber choice, to function of the firearm
and any past and present Martial training.

Examples.

*Zimmerman trial single and double action trigger pull weight was discussed with an expert witness on the stand.

*Az. vs. Fish Caliber of handgun Mr. Fish used. brought in by prosecution (a 10mm) a very "Large Caliber" furthermore Fish a retired school teacher ie. "old man", had earned a "Black Belt" in his younger days, another point brought up by the prosecution. Fish was found guilty, sent to prison, ultimately gained release through re-trial. Died soon after release.

They're are other cases that reflect this "All things will be considered"

My point being is to be fully aware, to be smart, and to be fully committed to protecting yourself all the way to the finish of the criminal and civil trials.
This is my point. While there is nothing illegal about modifying your firearm if you "trick it out" with all the bells and whistles an antigun prosecutor will try to make you look like a trigger happy killer. If a firearm works well out of the box I will keep it like it is and use only off the shelf ammo. However, this is just my opinion. If others feel differently and want to modify their firearms and reload their self defense ammo, that's cool.
Warrior1256 is offline  
Steel_Talon Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
1911 modifications Logan636 1911 Forum 4 09-21-2011 11:44 AM
Why are there trigger modifications? Vincine Semi-Auto Handguns 11 08-10-2011 12:22 AM
Jaco 22 modifications Grim83 DIY Projects 1 02-04-2010 11:16 AM
Ruger 10/22's With No Modifications Joe M .22 Rifle/Rimfire Discussion 21 11-14-2009 04:13 AM
C&R Modifications shellshock Curio & Relic Discussion 3 06-14-2007 12:05 AM



Newest Threads