Gun control/gun rights observation
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:03 AM   #1
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Lightbulb Gun control/gun rights observation

I have been reading a thread over at Drew Curtis' FARK.com regarding the impending ATF rule change. FARK.com: (5860738) ATF: "The law doesn't apply to us" (This thread is not about the article itself, nor is it really about the comments per se. It is more about the attitutes of those that lean towards gun control and/or are not strictly against guns in principle.)

One user's posting made something click. Here it is:

Quote:
Quote:
Weaver95: leave the innocent gun owners alone.
The innocent gun owners who are selling them the guns?

Nobody is, or should be, talking about banning all guns. But to even mention gun control when we know that the lax laws we have cause thousands of deaths and the gun lovers go off the reservation. Pistols and actual hunting weapons are fine and should be fine. It's beyond that, which are also the guns being sold in question, that cause the problems. But you and everyone like you always act like when people bring up the automatics that we're going to take away everyone's 9mm.

Be rational for a change.
I am not sure how I have missed this in the past, but in retrospect it is a recurring theme. "I do not have a problem with all guns, just (fully) automatics."

I find this interesting in a couple of ways. There is misconception that fully automatic firearms are readily available. Obviously we all here know that is not the case. (So do those that are active/vocal in the gun control lobby.) Why do they think this? I think it comes a lot from the media. Intentionally, or otherwise, (I bet on the former) there is no distinction is made between a semi-automatic and a fully automatic firearm, that any firearms that has the word "automatic" in it is capable of firing multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger. The gun control lobby certainly plays this up as well. Then it distills down in to the "Well, automatics are only good for killing people, no person should/needs to have one.

Secondly, and the same general thoughts on the media and the gun control lobby apply here as well in regards to intentional misrepresentation of facts/capabilities, is the whole "assault weapon" hubaloo. "That gun looks scary, its only purpose is to kill people." "That gun looks scary, it must be a fully automatic. Its only purpose is to kill people." "Hey, they looks like a military gun. It looks scary. It must be a fully automatic. Its only purpose is to kill people." Ad nauseum.

These two mindsets are very dangerous for 2A proponents. They are rational mindsets based on the information that is given. (I am not saying they are rational, only based on the information that is fed to the general populace, if it was indeed true.) People have been conditioned that fully automatic firearms are tools of death and destruction. People have been convinced that fully automatics have only one purpose. Based on that purpose, it is perfectly reasonable why someone would be againt them.

Why is this? Sadly, I think, it is because the gun control lobby (Brady Bunch, VPC, et al) are damn good at one thing: Marketing. From what I have seen, the Pro 2A groups are not nearly as good at it. There are +/- 25% of the people on each side that cannot be swayed from their stance on gun control/gun rights. Trying to convert them would be like trying to convert the Pope to Hindu. It is not going to happen. But, there are the +/- 50% in the middle that are on the fence. These are the people who will listen to both sides and make up their minds. Some will firmly plant themselves in one camp or the other, some are more fluid and constantly reshape their opinion based current information.

The attacks on the 2A are in the forms of laws and/or gun control policies. Those are merely tests and consequences of the gun control crusade. The real attacts are the barely preceivable bits of misinformation that get assimilated in to the public conciousness.

Little by little it builds up where one day you had a drip in a cave and now you have a big stalagtite.

It is late and this may be more of a ramble than anything. However, I think it is a good discussion point. What does the rest of FTF have to say?

G'night all.
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:27 AM   #2
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Wonder what this guy thinks his 9mm is for? Sure ain't for hunting. Most gun designs were designed for military use initially. At one time the lever gun was an "assualt rifle". I really hate that term and gun people should not be using it. The Colt SAA was intended for the military to kill people. There are people out there that think 2A is about hunting and target shooting. The gun grabbers ie. liberals/dems are and always have been all about dividing the opposition. Keep us divided and they stay in control. That's why they condemn any kind of solidarity ie. the Tea Party movement. Anything we do or say to each other that is not constructive is a feather in their cap. I look at a lot of different forums and most of them all have guys that want to attack or belittle someone that doesn't fit with their line of thinking. Instead of attacking fellow gun owners and making them feel like crap maybe we should try to educate each other without all the nasty comments. We need to be sticking together not attacking each other. To the OP that is a good post and fine example of what is going on.

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Old 01-03-2011, 12:12 PM   #3
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The fallacy partly lies in the idea that some handguns for self defense and some rifles and shotguns for hunting are OK, but everything else that's "just designed to kill people" are not. 2A isn't about defending one's person or putting meat on the table. It's about preserving individual liberty.

In New York, we still have the Clinton AWB in place and the arguments of the gun-banners are illogical. A .308 with a walnut stock is fine, but a .223 in black is evil and "serves no purpose". That sort of thing.

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." -Thomas Jefferson

The trouble is, to the collectivist, salvation (they think) comes in the form of a benign dictatorship: a strong government that redistributes wealth and property and ensures harmonious living by all subjects...after the annoying liberty-minded individualists have all been killed, that is.

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Old 01-04-2011, 11:58 AM   #4
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The trouble is, to the collectivist, salvation (they think) comes in the form of a benign dictatorship: a strong government that redistributes wealth and property and ensures harmonious living by all subjects...after the annoying liberty-minded individualists have all been killed, that is.
Of course. They all want to sit around the camp fire, holding hands and sing Kumbaya. This bunch of lotus eaters has no clue of the reality of life.
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:50 PM   #5
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The issue I was getting at, and maybe I was not clear on it, is that the gun control side is very effective in winning the mindshare of those that are on the fence (the 50% in the middle.)

More to the point, how do we (as a collective) counteract that. Yes, there are lots of good gun rights organizations out there that do a lot of good, especially at the legislative level. But, that can only go so far. Something needs to be done at the populace level. Perception IS reality. Eventually, and it does not matter if it is factually inaccurate, all military style/tactical firearms will be considered fully automatic in the pubics' eyes. (That more or less happened with the AWB.)

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Old 01-04-2011, 02:41 PM   #6
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primitive superstitous peoples with little to no education attribute magical evil properties to inanimate objects.

it is simple human nature to fear an object rather than a mindset. an inanimate object will just sit there till its molecules disperse if left alone. to a liberetard it is anethama to think people can be bad with the only illogical exception of anyone that disagrees with a libretard or his/her ideas. something is just not firing in their minds, it is easier for a liberal to resort to basic primitive beliefs and instincts than face the facts taht some people can be and are evil and should be punished. from that stems their belief that no one should have a gun because the gun is evil.

liberalism is a mental illness and should be treated as such.

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Old 01-04-2011, 02:48 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by schwefel View Post
The issue I was getting at, and maybe I was not clear on it, is that the gun control side is very effective in winning the mindshare of those that are on the fence (the 50% in the middle.)

More to the point, how do we (as a collective) counteract that. Yes, there are lots of good gun rights organizations out there that do a lot of good, especially at the legislative level. But, that can only go so far. Something needs to be done at the populace level. Perception IS reality. Eventually, and it does not matter if it is factually inaccurate, all military style/tactical firearms will be considered fully automatic in the pubics' eyes. (That more or less happened with the AWB.)
you counter it by not accepting their premise. use their terminology against them. anti-gun = pro-crime anti-ccw = bigot against minorities and so on. one of the failings of conservatves is having this crazy need to explain our ideas to a liberal that will never get it. they are only capable of keeping ideas in their heads that will fit on a bumper sticker.

keep it simple, use their terminolgy to describe what they do. call em bigots homophobes etc. how can you be against a poor minority using a gun to defend his/her family from the man??? do you really want the homosexual to not be able to defend himself from the racists with the tow rope and a truck???
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:03 PM   #8
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Just a few fun facts (which I'm sure most of you know)

"Assault Rifles" much less FAs account for less than .05% of all crimes committed.

If, what the gun ban folks say is true about assault rifles (that only drug dealers, gang bangers and home invaders use them) a six shot .38 is not going to cut it for self defense.

and finally

The 2nd amendment wasn't intended for home defense as much as it was intended to protect us from government tyranny.

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Old 01-04-2011, 03:13 PM   #9
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you counter it by not accepting their premise. use their terminology against them. anti-gun = pro-crime anti-ccw = bigot against minorities and so on. one of the failings of conservatves is having this crazy need to explain our ideas to a liberal that will never get it. they are only capable of keeping ideas in their heads that will fit on a bumper sticker.

keep it simple, use their terminolgy to describe what they do. call em bigots homophobes etc. how can you be against a poor minority using a gun to defend his/her family from the man??? do you really want the homosexual to not be able to defend himself from the racists with the tow rope and a truck???
Calling someone pro-crime and/or a biggot is a great way to insult them and galvanize them against whatever you are saying. It is the same as calling anyone who is Pro 2A a gun nut, a wingnut, a tea bagger, etc.

To say that "libtards" are incapable of understanding is an insult to both ends of the political spectrum. I know plenty of poeple who are left of center who are in favor of gun rights. Not always all of them, but of gun rights in general. Many of them have been persuaded to be even more in favor with discussion.

The "If you do not agree with me, then you are too stupid to live/understand/etc" does far more damage than anything the Brady Bunch and their ilk can do. People, on both sides, get very agitated whe they are called stupid.
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:56 PM   #10
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The people who straddle the fence are often gun owners themselves, who maybe have a shotgun or rifle in the closet. They don't understand the need for military-style firearms, but they confuse the word need with want. No, I don't need a Siggy 556 with an ACOG...I have it because I like it. Sure, I have need for a carry gun for PERSEC, but most of us here on this forum have a variety of guns because THEY ARE FUN.

My ultra lib sister-in-law was visiting us last year. She never shot a firearm in her life. I took her down to my range, gave her the safety lecture and let her shoot a .22. She had a blast! Her whole attitude about guns changed! 20 minutes with a 22 autoloader and a confirmed Boston Marxist discovered the FUN of shooting.

Next time you go to the range, invite a lib.

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