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Old 11-24-2011, 12:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by stickhauler View Post
There are several differences between the "gun walking" programs that went on during the Bush years and "Fast & Furious." The main one is, in the Bush era, our government was working with Mexican officials to interdict the firearms, in "F&F", no such cooperation between US Law Enforcement and Mexico's. And the sheer number of firearms walked by this administration, in less than 2 years time, is double or more the number in both Bush era programs. Hell, the ones still unaccounted for from "F&F" is more than the combined number of both Bush programs.

Oh, and one other little difference, the Bush programs didn't provide weapons used in the murders of 2 Federal LEO's.
You might want to add to this, that the Bush one also planted tracking devices in the weapons so they could be tracked. Where the F&F today did nothing of the kind. When the Bush administration found that the Mexican drug people were not as stupid as they thought they were they stopped the gun walking.
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Old 11-24-2011, 01:03 PM   #12
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The Gov't is just to big today! and it's NOT WORKING FOR THE COMMON MAN! today.

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Old 11-24-2011, 02:18 PM   #13
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I agree with most of what has been stated so far. We are all gun people here but still have different opinions(which is a good thing). On the NRA I disagree on many things they say and do. But they are still and have always been our loudest voice. There is no way we would have the gun freedoms we do today if there was no NRA. Everyone one this forum should be a member. It is easy to find fault with the NRA as some things they do are (in my eyes stupid) but my statement stands"There is no way we would have the gun freedoms we do today if there was no NRA. Everyone one this forum should be a member."

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Old 11-24-2011, 02:41 PM   #14
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Who has sources for the "secret" UN treaty language. I would think you would have to be a James Bond to even know it existed. If it smells like BS, it is probably BS.

Folks, remember this is an election year.

This is also a fund-raising year for the NRA. (as is every year) The NRA is the most paraniod (or dishonest) organization I know of. Every month is a new and horrible disaster coming up that they can fix. Then the next week I get a begging letter; the sky is falling, send money.If you believed the NRA articles from 2007, by now none of us could own a firearm because Obama was elected. They get dues from me every year, as I support their training programs, which are second to none. They don't get an extra dime for their partisan politics.

In the past three years I have only seen positive moves from states and the federal government concerning firearm use and ownership. Obama has not sneaked into my gun safe and taken a damn thing. Neither did Obama prevent me from getting an FFL-03 or buying a heap of firearms and ammo, through the mail.

The president is surely, personally, against firearm rights as we know and love them, but he has limited power to enforce his personal will on the public. Hillary never knew a gun she liked but the same principal applies to her ability to deal with it. One of the great things about the American form of government is the separation of powers. No one person or group can enforce their will on the public at large. No one is going to "sneak" a treaty past the congress, to think it can happen is to not understand how our government works.

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Old 11-24-2011, 04:08 PM   #15
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One of the great things about the American form of government is the separation of powers. No one person or group can enforce their will on the public at large. No one is going to "sneak" a treaty past the congress, to think it can happen is to not understand how our government works.
Two words for you:

Executive Order

I know about propaganda, you can see it on a small scale even in local elections. Now imagine the machinations that go into national elections. I agree with the NRA on some things; when it comes to safety and classes, youth training, you are absolutely right, they are second to none. I don't necessarily agree with their politics either. I'm a very conservative democrat, I believe there are people out there that genuinely need help.

I'm not too impressed with the Republican candidate line up. While I was initially leaning republican, there truly aren't any outstanding candidates. Flip-floppers and speaking out of one side of their mouthers. Not traits I want in a leader.

I know we are all impassioned about different things. We all have varying opinions on a wide range of topics. One thing I know for sure: We all love our guns.
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Old 11-24-2011, 05:12 PM   #16
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What are these conspiracies you speak of?

demotivational-poster-tin-foil-cubicle_3272011114451am.jpg  
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Old 11-24-2011, 05:26 PM   #17
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Then you get stories like this

Quote:
The case against the alleged killers of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry has disappeared from federal court records, apparently sealed by a federal judge.
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Old 11-24-2011, 06:55 PM   #18
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Wonder how the healthcare scam sneaked past congress. They didn't even read the damn thing. What makes you think these jackasses will read a treaty that comes their way?

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Old 11-24-2011, 07:00 PM   #19
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Wonder how the healthcare scam sneaked past congress. They didn't even read the damn thing. What makes you think these jackasses will read a treaty that comes their way?
It doesn't matter if the Senate ratifies a treaty that steps on the constitution. Signing a treaty is NOT one of the two ways to change the constitution.

This has happened before and courts have struck the treaties down. I'm not too worried.
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:57 PM   #20
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That's also incorrect. The number of firearms reported to the US government was vastly understated during Bush's program; a lot of soldiers in the Mexican army defected to the Cartels with their rifles and a lot of other ordnance when the criminal groups exerted their influence with either money or violence. Poverty is a driving force. It was proven the first program didn't work; why it was restarted is anyone's guess (trying to prove our gun laws were too lax). Hopefully, the investigation will continue

Either way, the guns fell into the wrong hands. Watch this interview by the NRA regarding this issue.

U. S. Government May Be Primary Suppliers of Mexican Drug Cartel Guns - YouTube
I understand the reality that firearms from the US were provided to drug cartels through the legal purchases by the Mexican military. And as the drug cartels have infiltrated the Mexican military, they simply tell whoever they have "turned" to their side what they want. It's ordered through the regular supply system, then handed over to the cartels when they arrive.

That does not negate the argument that the gun walking during the Bush years was significantly different than "Fast & Furious." In the case of "F&F", the plan was that they'd allow straw purchases and movement of arms to the cartels to "get" the top guys of the cartels. How it works that the Justice Department has any arrest powers in Mexico has yet to be explained.

In Operation Wide Receiver and Linebacker, the purchases were allowed with tracking devices imbedded into the guns. They were done with the knowledge of Mexican law enforcement, for the guns to be interdicted when moved across the border. Guns sold to Mexico through legal avenues are NOT the same as those smuggled into Mexico. Guns transferred to cartels by Mexican government officials are NOT smuggled, nor are firearms and other kinds of armament stolen by Mexican soldiers when they go AWOL.
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