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Old 01-14-2014, 09:43 AM   #81
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I saw the video. There is no church in view of the officers dash cam. All the officer could see is a man walking with his back to the officer. The man open carrying did nothing unusual unless walking down the sidewalk is unusual. The officer said he detained the man to see if he is a felon. I don't see that as probable cause but I am not a lawyer. The officer could have got the mans weapon and ID without making him lay on the concrete for an extended period of time. Then again the open carrier could have cooperated without all the chin music. It appears that every word he said just aggravated the officer.

Here is a link to the 911 call and the dash cam footage. Today I have found several links to the same footage. They are being taken down very quickly. I don't know how long this link will last but here it is:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/see_unedited_encounter_between.html

I think if you weren't breaking the law and some cop just decided to make you lay on the concrete, it wouldn't take you to long to protest his behavior. Cops are not God, we do have a right to protest and loudly if we are being abused. They have no right to abuse their power. I'm an old guy with a bum leg and if some SOB ordered me to the ground for no good reason you can bet your a$$ I'd be giving him grief. This is not a police state (at least not yet) if a cop is so afraid he can't treat a law abiding citizen with respect, it's time for him to find a different job.
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Old 01-14-2014, 09:53 AM   #82
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I think if you weren't breaking the law and some cop just decided to make you lay on the concrete, it wouldn't take you to long to protest his behavior. Cops are not God, we do have a right to protest and loudly if we are being abused. They have no right to abuse their power. I'm an old guy with a bum leg and if some SOB ordered me to the ground for no good reason you can bet your a$$ I'd be giving him grief. This is not a police state (at least not yet) if a cop is so afraid he can't treat a law abiding citizen with respect, it's time for him to find a different job.
Amen to that rjd. Ive had 4 back surgeries in the last 3yrs and a bloodclot in my left leg that went to my lungs and my leg still isn't right and my back never will be. Im only 45 but getting down on the ground like those ******* cops made this guy do would cause me great pain. You can bet you a$$ I would be very vocal about it. They get what they give, just like everybody else.
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Old 01-14-2014, 10:10 AM   #83
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I think if you weren't breaking the law and some cop just decided to make you lay on the concrete, it wouldn't take you to long to protest his behavior. Cops are not God, we do have a right to protest and loudly if we are being abused. They have no right to abuse their power. I'm an old guy with a bum leg and if some SOB ordered me to the ground for no good reason you can bet your a$$ I'd be giving him grief. This is not a police state (at least not yet) if a cop is so afraid he can't treat a law abiding citizen with respect, it's time for him to find a different job.
I respect your opinion. I feel the same way but when it is obvious the officers intent is to make you are miserable as possible there is no reason to throw fuel on the fire. Moreover, street lawyers almost always get a bad shake from police officers. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying the gentleman did anything to deserve the treatment he got. I am saying he would have gotten up sooner by remaining silent. You argue the law with a judge, not the police officer.
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Old 01-14-2014, 10:26 AM   #84
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That may be true JD but human nature is what it is. If you are being abused, it's just human nature to protest that abuse. Personally, I hope that cop loses his job.

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Old 01-14-2014, 10:27 AM   #85
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I respect your opinion. I feel the same way but when it is obvious the officers intent is to make you are miserable as possible there is no reason to throw fuel on the fire. Moreover, street lawyers almost always get a bad shake from police officers. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying the gentleman did anything to deserve the treatment he got. I am saying he would have gotten up sooner by remaining silent. You argue the law with a judge, not the police officer.
Didn't sound to me like he did anything wrong after he was on the ground. The scumbag cops didn't have any right to do what they did regardless of what he said or didn't say. He seemed to be pretty calm considering his rights were being violated. Cant honestly say I would have maintained my composure like he did. Flucking cops.
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Old 01-14-2014, 10:35 AM   #86
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Im a bit torn on this. I guess times have changed but didnt think they had changed this much. Im a Rural Rat from birth and cant count the number of times I open carried a longarm yet never ever inspired anything but a dead squirrel or bunny, we have very few LEO's around here but they never ever once questioned anyone I know about why they were carrying a firearm in public. Grand Rapids is certainly bigger and less Rural than Knoxboro and I suspect crime stats may be higher there also but I do get nervous when a LEO "detains someone to see if they are a Felon" unless they are doing something that is actually felonious. Presumed innocent is more than a catch phrase, its our way of preventing overreach by overzealous officials.

That said, U-Tube hit squad setups way too often ride the line of sensible so they will likely illicit the attention they are trying to get and should not be surprised when they do. I want to believe that Officers have been well trained to not react to words, words are only distractions.

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Old 01-14-2014, 12:14 PM   #87
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i've never really argued much against open carry with a PURPOSE. just that imo, concealed carry is more effective. it is the "doing it cause i can and to cause a stink" that i can live without.

anyway, i'm doing it again. sorry. i promise...no more open carry debate in respect to the OP.

and out of curiosity, what is this law you speak of and what state is ti enforced in?
I respect you for your concern with side-tracking this topic. But open/concealed carry cannot be removed because it is a factor in the equation. Just my opinion.
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Old 01-14-2014, 11:51 PM   #88
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I saw the video. There is no church in view of the officers dash cam.

The officer said he detained the man to see if he is a felon. I don't see that as probable cause but I am not a lawyer. The officer could have got the mans weapon and ID without making him lay on the concrete for an extended period of time.

They are being taken down very quickly. I don't know how long this link will last but here it is:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/see_unedited_encounter_between.html
Church was across the street. It is legal to OC in the church, but the church has the right to disallow any firearms. Sidewalk, even on the same side of the street is NOT the church, so it was still legal.

LEO does NOT have the right to detain someone to see if they are a felon. That has been resolved by SCOTUS.

MLive's link should remain active.

I don't know if this link is visible without registering, but it's a summary of links, details, and other information related to this case.
http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/index.php/topic,3581.0.html
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:22 AM   #89
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I saw the video. There is no church in view of the officers dash cam. All the officer could see is a man walking with his back to the officer. The man open carrying did nothing unusual unless walking down the sidewalk is unusual. The officer said he detained the man to see if he is a felon. I don't see that as probable cause but I am not a lawyer. The officer could have got the mans weapon and ID without making him lay on the concrete for an extended period of time. Then again the open carrier could have cooperated without all the chin music. It appears that every word he said just aggravated the officer.

Here is a link to the 911 call and the dash cam footage. Today I have found several links to the same footage. They are being taken down very quickly. I don't know how long this link will last but here it is:

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/01/see_unedited_encounter_between.html
I didn't see any church either. Perhaps that was an addition by our infamous media. This guy was walking down the middle of a sidewalk so even if there is a church he isn't on church property.

I think this one is going to be discussed much more and someone is going to get raked over the coals.
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:31 AM   #90
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the fact of the matter is there are cops who abuse their authority and haven't a real clue many times to the legalities of the law pertaining to a citizen's rights concering guns and lawful carry.

but there are still ignorant douchebags who will try and make a political statement about their rights and try an bait cops into doing or saying something wrong.

so ignorant douchebags shouldstart acting like they have some sense and using their brains if they want to make a statement. being stupid is still being stupid and just because a person is within their legal rights, doesn't mean they aren't acting stupid.
and abusive cops need to learn the law and start acting with some professionalism and dignity that their badge and position deserve. if not they should really consider a career change.

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