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Good Defensive Shoot?


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Old 03-25-2014, 10:04 PM   #11
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Wait, I'm confused. Did they shoot the guy with a gun? And he died?
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:05 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by clr8ter View Post
Wait, I'm confused. Did they shoot the guy with a gun? And he died?
That would tend to be the consensus...
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Originally Posted by Robert A Heinlein
Criminals are never materially handicapped by such rules; the only effect is to disarm the peaceful citizen and put him fully at the mercy of the lawless. Such rules look very pretty on paper; in practice they are as foolish and footless as the attempt of the mice to bell the cat.

Letter to Alice Dalgliesh, the editor who was censoring his manuscript for Red Planet, regarding gun control registration and control Published in 1949
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Old 03-25-2014, 10:06 PM   #13
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After any similar incident here , it must be investigated by the police ombudsman, is there any similar system in American.

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Old 03-25-2014, 10:20 PM   #14
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That was not justified at all. That was murder. There was a thread about this a few days ago. I was called a cop basher for saying that the police were wrong in this ONE case.

http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f13/justified-105388/index2.html
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:07 PM   #15
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People HERE said that??
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:42 AM   #16
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People HERE said that??
Not people. Just one guy.
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:12 AM   #17
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Geeze. One one hand, the victim had a history of violence including busting an officer in the nose AND he had a knife in his hand. On the other hand, he WAS turning to get down, and they bean-bagged him AND let the dog at him AFTER he was down.

I think they could've given him more time to get down, and if he didn't, THEN bean-bag him. At least try that BEFORE using bullets. Maybe they needed a bigger bean-bag gun. Something big enough to knock him on him butt.

I wouldn't call that ground particularly smooth, but for the sake of argument I'll concede he'd be able to scamper over it. What the hell was the K-9 officer doing being close enough to risk being stabbed.

I'm not confident the that officer that shot him, the one with the larcenous bent, is a particularly good decision maker.

It was handled poorly.
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Old 03-26-2014, 02:38 PM   #18
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Geeze. One one hand, the victim had a history of violence including busting an officer in the nose AND he had a knife in his hand. On the other hand, he WAS turning to get down, and they bean-bagged him AND let the dog at him AFTER he was down.

I think they could've given him more time to get down, and if he didn't, THEN bean-bag him. At least try that BEFORE using bullets. Maybe they needed a bigger bean-bag gun. Something big enough to knock him on him butt.

I wouldn't call that ground particularly smooth, but for the sake of argument I'll concede he'd be able to scamper over it. What the hell was the K-9 officer doing being close enough to risk being stabbed.

I'm not confident the that officer that shot him, the one with the larcenous bent, is a particularly good decision maker.

It was handled poorly.
"handled poorly"?? I think that is a bit of an understatement when you have a 'citizen' KILLED by the government for not legal, moral or ethical reason, don't you?????
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:08 PM   #19
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"handled poorly"?? I think that is a bit of an understatement when you have a 'citizen' KILLED by the government for not legal, moral or ethical reason, don't you?????
Yes.

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Old 03-26-2014, 06:38 PM   #20
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It seems that the universal consensus here is that is was NOT a good shoot. I am going to give my analysis. Please note that I am NOT a LEO, nor am I an experienced shooter. I am largely self taught and I bought my first firearm the day after our current POTUS's reelection. I have since done quite a bit of research into the legal and moral aspects of use of force situations and much of the training I have paid for focuses on that subject.

So here goes..

According to reports this situation had been ongoing for several hours, judging by the quality and brightness of the camera footage I would estimate that the video was taken just after sunset and it was beginning to get dark. It would have been darker to the people who where there then the camera would show. It gets noticeably darker though the four minute video and later the guy with the helmet cam uses the light on his rifle to assist in the search of the subject's camp storage site.

In the video you can hear conversation between the LEOs and the subject, from the tone it seems to me that the LEO's patience is exhausted. It appears that the subject was picking up his bags in readiness to leave the area.

At 52 seconds the helmet camera guys says "do it" while they are deploying a flash-bang. It was used in an open area while the subject was turned slightly away from where it detonated reducing its effectiveness.

Then the LEO's stated yelling for the subject to get on the ground while the K9 officer approaches and releases his dog. The dog jumps up and bites then releases and grabs a bag off the ground and brings it to the K9 officer. The dog was between the handler and the subject and it would appear to me that the dog did not perceive the subject as a threat since it returned to its handler with some of the subject's possessions. This would indicate to me that the K9 officer and the dog needs further and immediate remedial training. (On the subject of large dogs, I have been around them all my life and have extensive obedience and behavioral training experience with dogs in a civilian pet context)

At 58 seconds the subject draws a knife in each hand after dropping his bags. He takes about a quarter step forward towards the K9 officer then turns his body away and leans towards the ground it what appears to me to be compliance to orders. Initially he was standing on a grade facing down hill. The natural tendency would be to turn and lay down so that his head was at higher level then his feet, it appears that he was doing exactly that.

The subject was then fired upon by two LEOs with rifles. The first made the decision to open fire and the other responded likewise. Although I think that the second LEO only opened fire in response the the first LEO's fire. However, since the second LEO's fire takes place so soon after the first one opens fire both were responding to what is in my opinion faulty training. They saw an escalating threat where the threat was in actuality deescalating resulting in 6 shots fired and an unknown number of hits.

Further, both rifle wielding LEOs were BEHIND the K9 officer and the LEO with the Bean Bag shotguns did not seem to have a clear line of sight to the subject just prior and a bit after the shooting of the subject. Also, the bean bags COULD have been deployed rather then immediately resorting to lethal force.

After the subject goes prone on his belly the LEOs move up. At this point the subject is not very responsive and only moves a leg in response to the LEO's commands to drop the knives. A LEO deploys the bean bag shot gun and shoots the subject. One LEO makes the statement "Negative Effect" when the subject dose not move after being shot three times with the bean bags.

The subject did not respond to the dog biting him. At this point he is very likely deceased yet at no point in this video did any of the LEOs make any attempt to summon EMS or even determine if the subject is even alive.

My conclusion is that this was NOT a good shoot. While I know that a person with a knife drawn is extremely dangerous, this subject was turning away and preparing to lay down on the ground when he was shot. Overall I find the whole situation disgusting and not representative of the level of professionalism that one normally expects (and gets) from the LE community. I believe that every LEO on that site at that time should be fired and barred from further LE employment. Further, the two rifle shooters should be held on criminal charges.

This really makes me angry since I see the poor handling of this situation as yet another wedge driven between the citizenry at large and LE.
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Originally Posted by Robert A Heinlein
Criminals are never materially handicapped by such rules; the only effect is to disarm the peaceful citizen and put him fully at the mercy of the lawless. Such rules look very pretty on paper; in practice they are as foolish and footless as the attempt of the mice to bell the cat.

Letter to Alice Dalgliesh, the editor who was censoring his manuscript for Red Planet, regarding gun control registration and control Published in 1949
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