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-   -   Good Defensive Shoot? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/good-defensive-shoot-105433/)

WonderingMind 03-25-2014 02:47 AM

Good Defensive Shoot?
 
This one was done by the Albuquerque PD. The first link is the raw video from a helmet cam on one of the LEOs. I don't want to prejudice anyone's opinions on this, so I will refrain from commenting further until I have seen what experienced shooters and LEOs think. The second link is for a local news segment showing parts of the first video, the Police Chief's press conference and a local lawyer's views.

http://up.anv.bz/latest/anvload.html?key=eyJtIjoiTElOIiwicCI6ImRlZmF1bHQiL CJ2IjoiMjQzNjcxIn0=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7pnUjEY1xE&feature=player_embedded

Franklin1995 03-25-2014 05:02 AM

Defensive shoot my ass, the guy was walking away. They just got tired of dealing with the guy. This is what our country is coming to... The most those officers will get it is fired. If any of us shot a guy like that and tried to claim self defense, we'd be going to jail in a heart beat. And then to keep shooting him with the bean bags and letting the dog loose again? Seriously?

7point62 03-25-2014 12:26 PM

I can see about a half-dozen non-lethal options available here that APD chose to ignore. The police chief's equivocating notwithstanding, there will be trouble--and rightly so--over this one. I rarely find myself in agreement with the ACLU or in opposition to LEOs defending themselves, but this is one time when it's pretty plain they wanted to ice this dude.

Donn 03-25-2014 01:29 PM

I could be wrong, but I believe the helmet cam footage will be the officer's undoing. If it were just their word, the "Knife in his hand" story might float. But the video? You don't have to be a CSI to see this is not a good shoot.

John_Deer 03-25-2014 02:14 PM

We have between 600,000 and 900,000 full time police officers in the US according to who's numbers you believe. We have 120,000 Federal officers in the US. With that many police officers we are bound to have some rotten eggs. Even when the officer is proven to be a rotten egg it is hard to get rid of him. Even departments that do not have a union require a long drawn out process of reviews and hearings to let an officer go.

Many officers do believe they are above the law or the people they are supposed to be serving are maggots that need to be locked up guilty or not. These officers should be weeded out quickly. They make a tough job harder for officers who truly want to serve and protect us all.

I am thankful to be in an area where the deputies we have are dedicated to our community. Every one of our deputies could walk away to a substantial raise in pay by simply getting a job at a larger department.

WonderingMind 03-25-2014 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John_Deer (Post 1539406)
We have between 600,000 and 900,000 full time police officers in the US according to who's numbers you believe. We have 120,000 Federal officers in the US. With that many police officers we are bound to have some rotten eggs. Even when the officer is proven to be a rotten egg it is hard to get rid of him. Even departments that do not have a union require a long drawn out process of reviews and hearings to let an officer go.

Many officers do believe they are above the law or the people they are supposed to be serving are maggots that need to be locked up guilty or not. These officers should be weeded out quickly. They make a tough job harder for officers who truly want to serve and protect us all.

I am thankful to be in an area where the deputies we have are dedicated to our community. Every one of our deputies could walk away to a substantial raise in pay by simply getting a job at a larger department.

In any human endeavor there will be those who put personal gain ahead of the one main rule for interpersonal interaction, cause no harm by force or fraud. This is why Progressivism/socialism/communism fails so badly, there is no method built into the system to protect the individual from the excesses of the majority. If we were ants or bees socialism would likely work very well for us, but we aren't and it doesn't.

That said, I am interested in your reaction to this shooting specifically. Or, more accurately I am wondering what details I missed if anything in this video. Thus I am waiting for the verdict of experienced shooters and those who have a much deeper understanding of the legalities of a defensive shoot. I am still a novice as yet, and I consider this thread just one more line item in my quest to gain enough knowledge to figure out if I am on the track of wisdom or if I am still wandering the woods of ignorance looking for the path.

clr8ter 03-25-2014 03:00 PM

Yeah, good shoot my ass. Although, it was pretty clear that the guy DID have a knife in his hand. After he was down, though, it'd be a HUGE stretch to call him a threat. If it were up to me, there would be no long drawn out process for cases like this. They would be fired within the week, and brought up on charges the same day. And in my opinion, anybody caught breaking the law would be forever barred from holding any kind of LEO job, EVER, no second chance.

vincent 03-25-2014 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7point62 (Post 1539351)
I can see about a half-dozen non-lethal options available here that APD chose to ignore. The police chief's equivocating notwithstanding, there will be trouble--and rightly so--over this one. I rarely find myself in agreement with the ACLU or in opposition to LEOs defending themselves, but this is one time when it's pretty plain they wanted to ice this dude.

What he said...

The hit him with the beanbag shots after they shot him in the back???

They use the dog after they shot him in the back???

Did the coroner taze him too just to be on the safe side???

Cold blooded murder, plain and simple...:mad:

TDS92A 03-25-2014 04:24 PM

Not meaning to beat this horse anymore, but there was nothing justified about that shooting. The K9 officer was not in any danger. If he perceived that he was, he could have released the dog.

After the suspect was down, the threat was reduced. I could see releasing the dog to occupy the suspect until the officers could move in to take control. Shooting the suspect with the bean bag rounds while he was on the ground was unnecessary.

Flash bang devices are only effective inside a room where the light and sound would have maximum effect.

I saw no taser devices being deployed ( I could only watch the "youtube" version).

Suffice it to say, this shooting was totally wrong.

JimRau 03-25-2014 09:05 PM

I have 40+ years in LE with SWAT experience and I agree this was totally unjustified use of lethal force.:mad: The kicker is when they called for 'bean bag' AFTER they had used lethal force. If the 'less than lethal' option was available for a person armed with 'knifes' it should have been used FIRST! There was NO opportunity to harm anyone as he had 'knifes' in BOTH HANDS!! Ability was there because he was 'armed' and most of all no one was in danger! :mad:
This is exactly the kind of thing I have been fearing would happen with the poor training given to the new generation of LEO's.:(
Thank you for bringing this to our attention.


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