thanks tek, exactly what is said, seems like someone thought i was trying to pick a fight. by all means i wish life were easy and we didnt need permits, i agree wholeheartedly that we shouldnt have to go through this process, but the process is the process, so what is the argument. its actually silly if you ask me. i am actually proud of the fact that i have a carry permit, and a carry permit for multiple states, i agree that the cost is at times ridiculous, but what can you do. not really sure where the idea of listing all the other rights comes in, but the discussion is getting a bit foolish. if you want to carry without a permit carry, but trust me, it will save you a serious headache when you get stopped for a tail light being out and you get pulled from your vehicle at gunpoint and then go to jail and have to be bailed out for illegal possession of a firearm or carrying a concealed firearm without a permit. that is a serious thing. it sucks, but why put yourself through that old man. ive been on both sides, i like the side i am on now, law enforcement is the only way to go, never liked being a criminal, i was really bad at it.