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Old 09-05-2010, 12:41 AM   #11
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I'm not in disagreement with your statement, but I do disagree with your belief that making application to carry a concealed weapon is asking permission.

The law here in Texas is quite clear. The state SHALL ISSUE a permit to those that are not disqualified. There is no question. The state cannot deny a permit arbitrarily. To be denied you must meet one of the disqualifying factors. Otherwise the state is going to issue the permit.

Payment does not constitute asking permission either. Payment merely meets the administrative costs involved. Otherwise taxes would have to pay the costs involved.

Not much different than getting a drivers license.


But, I do agree there are some laws still highly restrictive and bordering on unconstitutional, and some down right unconstitutional.

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Old 09-05-2010, 12:50 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Eastex_Guns View Post
I'm not in disagreement with your statement, but I do disagree with your belief that making application to carry a concealed weapon is asking permission.

The law here in Texas is quite clear. The state SHALL ISSUE a permit to those that are not disqualified. There is no question. The state cannot deny a permit arbitrarily. To be denied you must meet one of the disqualifying factors. Otherwise the state is going to issue the permit.

Payment does not constitute asking permission either. Payment merely meets the administrative costs involved. Otherwise taxes would have to pay the costs involved.

Not much different than getting a drivers license.


But, I do agree there are some laws still highly restrictive and bordering on unconstitutional, and some down right unconstitutional.
Well in that case, whats wrong with constitutional carry? Alaska, Vermont, and Arizona have it and it seems to work there. If the purpose of a cpl wasn't to ask permission, shouldnt they just have constitutional carry, that would cut the administrative costs and the only cost would involve buying the gun.
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:16 AM   #13
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Well in that case, whats wrong with constitutional carry? Alaska, Vermont, and Arizona have it and it seems to work there. If the purpose of a cpl wasn't to ask permission, shouldnt they just have constitutional carry, that would cut the administrative costs and the only cost would involve buying the gun.
I don't particularly disagree with open carry. I actually feel safer knowing that some amount of proficiency is graded when someone obtains a carry permit. I believe that 'friendly fire' is a real possibility either way, but would be more so with open carry, unless some proficiency is demonstrated with that as well.
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:46 AM   #14
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Open carry is different from constitutional carry. Open carry is carrying your pistol in a visible manner. Constitutional carry is the right to carry your pistol concealed or openly without a government license or permit. Those states that allow constitutional carry have cpl systems, but they are optional not required to carry a concealed pistol.

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Old 09-05-2010, 05:46 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastex_Guns View Post
I'm not in disagreement with your statement, but I do disagree with your belief that making application to carry a concealed weapon is asking permission.

The law here in Texas is quite clear. The state SHALL ISSUE a permit to those that are not disqualified. There is no question. The state cannot deny a permit arbitrarily. To be denied you must meet one of the disqualifying factors. Otherwise the state is going to issue the permit.

Payment does not constitute asking permission either. Payment merely meets the administrative costs involved. Otherwise taxes would have to pay the costs involved.

Not much different than getting a drivers license.


But, I do agree there are some laws still highly restrictive and bordering on unconstitutional, and some down right unconstitutional.
I respectfully disagree with much of your statement.

First, ANY PERMIT is an INFRINGEMENT of a RIGHT that we all have, we are not granted this right by the government, therefore it cannot be taken away by the government, if it could then it would be a PRIVLEDGE and not a right!
The only "qualification" to the right is to be alive and an American Citizen. If an individual is convicted of violent crimes with a firearm, well they STILL have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms! The only thing is they don't have access to them because they should be locked away or get the deep six!
This is VERY different than a drivers license, driving is a privledge, not a right acknowledged by the Constitution. Fees for "permits" are just a tax. It is illeagal to put a tax on a right that is constitutionally acknowledged.
As Clip11 stated, the gun controllers try to play it off as a safety issue, it is not and never has been about safety. It is ONLY about CONTROL!! An unarmed populace is easier to control than an armed one, and control is what our government has become all about.
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Old 09-05-2010, 10:51 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Eastex_Guns View Post
The law here in Texas is quite clear. The state SHALL ISSUE a permit to those that are not disqualified. There is no question. The state cannot deny a permit arbitrarily. To be denied you must meet one of the disqualifying factors. Otherwise the state is going to issue the permit.
.
This statement contradicts itself. BEcause there are ways to disqualify it's is not a shall issue. It's a shall issue as long as you meet standards set by people that believe you are not smart enough to make a decision on this matter without their assistance.

Until someone can tell me honestly that they know that every permit holder in every state that requires some form of qualification actually adheres to those standards. I'll bet you know at least one person that obtained a carry permit that probably shout be walking around with a loaded weapon on their person. A test is a test. Know the material and you can pass it. Think about it.One mall ninja or just flat out idiot that has a permit. I know a few just in my little corner of the country. But still have permission from the state to have a weapon on their person. So there is not much real argument to be made for laws controlling carrying a weapon.

And what about the states that do not require a permission slip from big daddy government to carry concealed? Are there more gun crimes in Vermont? Alaska?I wont talk about Az. yet because it's still too new. But I can't see any failure in states allowing Constitutional Carry. Unless we are willing to say there are too many people that can own a weapon legally but they are just too dang stupid to be allowed to hide it on their person. I'm not willing to make that statement. To me to do so means I"m willing to curtail another citizens rights.

Now don't get me wrong....I'm all for getting training and to keep up training to stay sharp. And for the most part I see that from anyone that does carry. Most take the responsibility very serious and they should! But just like those with an advanced degree in stupid that have found a way to pass the requirements now there will be some without the laws.

A right is a right...period. And as the piece of paper says...Shall not be infringed. As long as we are willing to allow those that believe we need saved from ourselves to ration our rights to us we will be controlled by the very people we hire to do the work for us. I don't know but it seems a little bas-akward to have the employee telling the boss what to do.
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Old 09-07-2010, 08:10 PM   #17
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But what makes me mad is that you have to pay for a ccw permit. I don't know how it is in Texas but here in missouri you have to be at least 23, take a class which cost money, apply which cost money, then pay for your permit which cost money. So paying for a right? maybe appling could be ok, but paying? do you have to pay for the right to free speech or freedom of religon? I think you should not have to pay for a right, which would make having to pay a dime for a ccw unconstitutional.

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Old 09-07-2010, 08:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastex_Guns View Post
I'm not in disagreement with your statement, but I do disagree with your belief that making application to carry a concealed weapon is asking permission.

The law here in Texas is quite clear. The state SHALL ISSUE a permit to those that are not disqualified. There is no question. The state cannot deny a permit arbitrarily. To be denied you must meet one of the disqualifying factors. Otherwise the state is going to issue the permit.
What disqualifying characteristics are listed in the Texas State Constitution about owning and carrying firearms? If they spell it out, then fine -- I have no problem with whatever they do. But if they don't say that convicted felons, folks up on felony charges, folks unwillingly committed to mental institutions, etc. don't have this right, then they most certainly do have this right.

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Payment does not constitute asking permission either. Payment merely meets the administrative costs involved. Otherwise taxes would have to pay the costs involved.
Up here in Monroe County in New York, you have to get two passport photos, get fingerprinted, and submit the application. By the time you're done with travel expenses and everything, you're looking at nearly $200. That's one heck of a "fee". It costs that much to be a deterrent, not because processing the paperwork costs that much. And you don't need to take any class proving your proficiency.

After you submit your application with four references, you can sit back and wait up to a year or more to find out if you may carry concealed (which is the only way you're allowed to carry in NYS).

Different states have different laws, and that's fine. But if your state constitution acknowledges you have a right to own and carry arms, then that's a done deal and state legislators can't go tacking on qualifying legislation that steps on people's rights.

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Not much different than getting a drivers license.
That's an entirely different animal.

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But, I do agree there are some laws still highly restrictive and bordering on unconstitutional, and some down right unconstitutional.
Once 2A is acknowledged as being incorporated against the states, all gun control laws become illegal. Period.

There is no room for "reasonable" or "common sense" restrictions. If the law you live under understands that it's your right, knock yourself out.
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Old 09-07-2010, 09:21 PM   #19
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Hearing what you have to go through in New York to get a CCW makes me glad the Washington state hasn't completely gone down the drain. It was a relatively painless trip to the courthouse that involved a payment of $55, a background check, fingerprinting, and my signature. What does make me frustrated is that I had to wait nearly three months for my permit in King County, but a friend of mine in a different county got his in 7 days.

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