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Old 10-16-2010, 02:35 AM   #21
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Thats because rockets and jets arent practical for a vehicle. Also Piston driven engines generally get faaar superior fuel economy to rockets or jets they just dont produce as much power. I would also like to point out that rockets have been around far longer than internal combustion engines have been and havent done much more than get bigger and get nozzles. Where as a modern car can produce more power from 1 cylinder than 16 cylinders would in the 1920's.

There is an old saying where i come from it goes like this "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

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Old 10-16-2010, 03:27 PM   #22
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Speaking of jet engines, this new Jag has twin gas turbine engines!! It is a hybrid but has a 195 hp motor for each of the four wheels. That's 780 hp combined. The gas turbine engines kick in when the battery system needs to recharge and each provide 188HP!



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Old 10-16-2010, 05:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Cory2 View Post
Thats because rockets and jets arent practical for a vehicle. Also Piston driven engines generally get faaar superior fuel economy to rockets or jets they just dont produce as much power. I would also like to point out that rockets have been around far longer than internal combustion engines have been and havent done much more than get bigger and get nozzles. Where as a modern car can produce more power from 1 cylinder than 16 cylinders would in the 1920's.

There is an old saying where i come from it goes like this "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
You so missed that complete point of the post.

What I am saying is this We took a single man biplane that flew 30mph at the most and in 70 or so years We had a plane that could out fly anything in the world. It flies at 2,193.2 mph. Yet the car hasn't changed at all since bens started making them. 4 wheels an internal combustion engine and doors.

The point I am making is this. If you want to do something then do it. We wanted the fastest highest flying aircraft in the world why because we wanted to have the fastest highest flying aircraft in the world.

If we wanted to have an electric car that went 100 mpg for 100 miles on a single charge we could do it. We could do it and do it faster than any other country in the world. We are the only country that geared up for WWII in a matter of no time and wee cranking out planes ships and tanks at an alarming rate.

The USA was a great country till the douche bag liberals started with this WE CAN'T DO IT crap. This country can do anything it wants we just have to push for it. If we needed to we could open up old factories and out produce just about any country in the world right now.

Face it the internal combustion is old and should be retired.... There are much better options out there for powering our lives.
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Old 10-16-2010, 08:48 PM   #24
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What's better than the internal combustion engine for automobiles? Simple science says that electricity isn't, and will never be unless we electrify the roadways and get our power from outer space.

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Old 10-16-2010, 11:06 PM   #25
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I am of the belief that we don't have a shortage and we will never run out of oil. The oil is a byproduct of the hot molten core of the planet.
I have to ask if you're serious, Tango.

First, oil is NOT the byproduct of the core of the earth AT ALL. It is decomposed organic matter deposits. The synthesis of oil-like substances by a planetary core is hypothetically possible, but so is The Matrix. Earth-core petroleum hypothesis was only popular in early soviet russia, man. Come on.

Where does oil come from?

Second, you think we'll never run out of oil ? Really, man? Where is this endless supply of oil going to come from? Magical Oil Asteroids? Who the hell knows when peak oil will occur, but it IS (like everything else except stupid) a finite resource, and will run out. Unless we can start decaying plankton at an astonishing rate....
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:43 AM   #26
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Like I said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The internal combustion engine is not broken it achieves about 15% energy effieciency (compared to 8% from a nuclear power plant). The fuel is the issue. I have wondered for a long time why no one wants to make a combustion engine that runs on liquid hydrogen. Well, none of the big dogs in the business world. The plans already exist and have for quite a while and it was built and worked fine. It's exhaust is simple H2O so there would be no pollution. We do have quite a bit of water to use to retrieve the hydrogen. Also, us gearheads would still get to have our fast cars that we can go work on, as they would be exactly like a gasoline engine is now except the fuel lines and injectors would be different...and the fuel tank.

The only downside to hydrogen is that at the moment it takes 3 times as much energy to seperate hydrogen and oxygen (electrolosis) as it produces to burn them. I believe the real issue with it is that it wouldnt make money, once they developed the technology to seperate hydrogen and oxygen more effieciently people could do it themselves and all the big oil companies would go under... But then again they are pushing cars that run on hydrogen anyway, I guess as long as the plants producing the electricity for the electrolosis run on oil and coal the big oil still makes money.

Also, yes I agree that anything America wants to achieve it can. However, there has to be a motivation and the companies with the money to develop the technology would be put out of business by their own technology. Even if people didn't start doing it themselves, how could big oil jack up prices? "oh my god! the ocean is gone" or "oh my god! the ocean is to far away from american shores" you see my point. There is no money to be made in a logical solution. Only in the illogical ones, such as battery powered cars that still require oil and produce alot more pollution than a regular I.C.E.

tl;dr Internal combustion engine is fine, the fuel is the problem.

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Old 10-17-2010, 07:54 PM   #27
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When I've looked at ethanol as fuel naturally you have the negative issue of what crop one is harvesting to ferment to make the suff. Also, theres fertilizer, herbicides, fuel for the tractors, and energy to process the crop which is usually corn here. Doesn't really work out for oil consumption or cost of corn. In Brazil they use a genitically engineered type switch grass with high sugar content and needs near no water to grow. Also, they can get quite a few cuttings a year of this grass to process into ethanol fuel. Supposedly much more efficient than corn.

Ethanol has approxmently 1/3 rd the BTU's of gasoline and methanol has approxmetly 1/2 the BTU's of gasoline. Gasoline engines set up to run these alcohol fuels make some more horsepower and do run cleaner, but consume more of the alcohol fuel to do so.

Now an internal combustion engine needs to be set up with more mechanical efficiency to get the biggest bang for the buck when using alcohol fuels.

Mods would include going to 15:1 or compression ratio for a naturally asperated set up or use less compression ratio and boost the hell out the intake charge with a supercharger or better yet a trubocharger. Turbo being better as it reclaims a great deal of the 30% or so heat energy lost out the exhaust. When I'm talking about boost I mean in the range of 30 to 40 lbs. boost. Along with that get the engine up to about to and run at 250 degrees F. Also a camshaft with a shorter lobe center than used by a gasoline fueled engine. The shorther lobe center ground cam will build more cylinder pressure and in essence make the engine act as if it has more compression than it actually has without so much the problems of detonation.

A total anhydrous ethanol motor set up like this can get better than fairly good fuel economy, be not too hard on emmission levels, and the nice side benifit would be potentially massive horsepower.


A couple of problems with alcohol fuel is that it burns quite a bit colder than petroleum based fuels and is a bitch to start and keep running until the engine gets up to temp. Also, anhydrous alochol of any kind will dilute itself with the water that exsists in the air. I've had 1/2 full barrels of anhydrous methanol fuel left open over night and have had the same barrel near 3/4 full the next day due to the moisture is sucked up from the air. A fuel bladder in the vehicle would reduce this effect to nill however.

The major drawback to an internal combustion engine built ot run alcolol efficiently is you wouldn't be able to ever run gasoline in it as it would probably go off like a gernade.

Thats my 2 cents also the good and the bad on how one could possibly make alcohol fuel work.

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Old 10-17-2010, 07:56 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunerunner View Post
Speaking of jet engines, this new Jag has twin gas turbine engines!! It is a hybrid but has a 195 hp motor for each of the four wheels. That's 780 hp combined. The gas turbine engines kick in when the battery system needs to recharge and each provide 188HP!



Hey that Jag looks too much like a new Lotus.
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:41 AM   #29
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The original question was how green are electric cars. I would invite you to take a look for yourself.

The batteries in those cars use a LOT of sponge nickel. That is smelted in Canada, by a Brazilian owned company. Go take a look, please- right now. We'll wait for you. Oh, how to take a look? Go to Google Earth. Enter Sudbury Ontario as the destination, Let it swoop ya over there. Zoom in some. Then look off to your left for what looks like a plume of white smoke, blowing NNE. THAT is the stack for the nickel smelter. Go ahead, pan over there, and then Zoom in. I want you to take a look at the ground along the path of the plume from their stack. Take a HARD look. Healthy looking countryside, huh? Oh- BTW, most smelting ops produce heavy metals- along with some of the nickel that gets out in the waste plume.

I find it incredible that anyone can talk about how "green" something is when the manufacturing process can turn areas into blight like this.

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Old 10-18-2010, 06:36 PM   #30
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I still wish there were more cars running on cleaner burning compressed natural gas (in good supply in the U.S.A.). Although, i see some nice Crown Vic's on ebay regularly, some pickups too. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-Police-Interceptor-CNG-NGV-P71-2004-Ford-Crown-Victoria-Police-Interceptor-CNG-NGV-P71-/220683468668?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3361c27f7c

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Speaking of jet engines, this new Jag has twin gas turbine engines!!
Yes, but it is a Jag; how many days will it be in the shop each month? Actually, were the Jag your only car, it would be very easy on fuel, presuming you walked the rest of the time.
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