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Old 03-31-2010, 09:50 PM   #21
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Thus the "challenged IN the SCOTUS". I did not say "challenged BY the SCOTUS". Once SCOTUS agrees to hear arguements regarding decisions in the lower courts, the challenge is made IN the SCOTUS. Otherwise they would not allow counsel to make present arguements in front of the SCOTUS. Semantics, I guess.
My bad - you're right.
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:06 PM   #22
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No biggie, bkt. You are the resident Constitutional man. Not questioning as my knowledge is extremely limited. You have educated me more than you know. Peace, brother.

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...without the Second, we cannot protect the rest!
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:51 AM   #23
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After the Brady campaign and other anti-gun organizations release the ads with first graders open carrying automatic weapons they can barely lift into school and Muslim looking men open carrying firearms onto airplanes and drunk people leaving a bar unable to walk straight but able to carry their automatic rifle, they won't need to be pure-left, every state will want some restrictions.
This is a good point. you gotta remember, it is a TOTALY different world we live in from the days of our founding fathers, gobs of people have been conditioned to think that GUNS are BAD, most have never been trained on the use of firearms and have a MSM opinion about them in general. I think that if everyone who chose to carry, either open or concealed, was allowed to carry without restriction, folks would eventually get used to it. During the time of our founding fathers and untill gun contrl laws started spreading like the plague, people weren't alarmed at the sight of someone carrying a firearm, it was everyday occurance! I tell people when discussions turn this way that I think guns should not only be legal to carry but MANDATORY!! If everyone was armed no one would be a helpless victim, me carrying in your presence is me telling you that I am prepared to defend you at any time! So, to answer your question Opaww, yes, Ifully support the 2nd completely and in all it's glory!
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Old 04-01-2010, 03:18 AM   #24
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My teacher told me a few months ago that the second ammendment is protected but they can take it away from you for several reason the biggest is if it harms someone like you can't yell fire in a movie theature.

Or back during the red scare everyone thought everyone was a communist spy and if you said the wrong thing you were taken to jail or accused.

my opinion fubar

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Old 04-01-2010, 10:49 AM   #25
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Rifled barrels = Actually dates as far back at the 15th century but was not really produced until the 18th century. Due to the complexities of producing the rifling. During the revolutionary war for independence we saw the first real use of rifled barrels in muskets. Where marksman (snipers) was given rifled barreled muskets to use against the enemy.

Flintlock = dates some place around 1635 where the need for faster and reliable firing of weapons had a need.

Percussion cap = 1842 where again the need for faster and more reliable firing of small arms was needed.

Metallic case cartridges = was introduced around 1845

Revolvers = has a related history dating as far back as 1597 with the revolving arquebus produced by Hans Stopler, but the real leader in advanced forearms design was Samuel Colt with his 1836 patented designed revolver which enjoyed a lot of new innovations over the years sense.

Lever action rifles = actually dates back to around 1848 but saw no real popularity until right around 1860

Semi automatic weapons = can be dated back to 1885 with Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher’s Model 85 semi automatic rifle which spurned other designs and innovations in shot guns, rifles, and handguns.

Full automatic weapons = Actually are dated back to 1862 and are directly related to the Gatling gun.

SURPRISE full Automatic weapons were never against the law for individual citizens to buy, own, and use and still are not against the law. Though in 1934 congress passed the National Firearms Act, effectively placing a tax on manufacturing and transfer of certain firearms and full auto weapons fell under this bogus attempt at restricting personal ownership.

Just what is this about you might be saying? Well it has to do with a train of belief in many circles where some people believe that our founders had no insight into the advancements of modern weapons. You see they were smart men, some were very educated, and most had the foresight to know that weapons would advance in function, design, and lethality.

At no time in our history until the 1934 was there any restrictions place on buying selling, owning, and/or using any small arms by the citizens of this country. I had a copy of and link to the actual minutes of the meeting in congress back in 1932 where they were trying to figure out how to ban ownership, and use of private owned weapons. The Unites States Attorney General then shot down ever conceived scam to ban guns for civilian ownership based on Constitutional grounds except the taxing of them under the interstate commerce clause. Which is technically not a ban but it gave the BATF the authority to deny you the tax stamp on certain weapons they felt one should not own.

Even at that meeting of congress in 1932 one of the reasons for the ban on private gun ownership was racist in nature, where one congressman stated and it is on record, that the worst thing we can do is to let a black man (ni_ _ _r) have a pistol and a bottle of whisky on a train.

Up until the usurping of the governments power over constitutional gun rights in 1934 one could order a full automatic Thompson sub-machine gun or even a BAR right from the Sears and Roebuck catalog and it would be mailed right to you. Many general stores had them on the shelf.

Most of the fears of gun ownership stem from the government fearful of the populist. They use any and all excuses to take from you a GOD given right, backed by our Bill of Rights. Hollywood is no friend to the Bill of Rights unless some restriction is directly placed on them but for the common citizen they support any attempt to deny you of something that was given by a higher authority then them, the government or mankind.

A lot of what we have today and basically sense the early 1900’s is a lack of belief in a GOD who granted us these rights. Where man is steadily renouncing even the thought of a higher being, who is more important and powerful then man himself, we are running into the train of thought that our Second Amendment rights was not granted my such a being but rather by the all powerful government and they can choose to take that right any time they want.

opaww

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Old 04-01-2010, 12:12 PM   #26
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SURPRISE full Automatic weapons were never against the law for individual citizens to buy, own, and use and still are not against the law. Though in 1934 congress passed the National Firearms Act, effectively placing a tax on manufacturing and transfer of certain firearms and full auto weapons fell under this bogus attempt at restricting personal ownership.
In 1943 (Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105), the Supreme Court ruled that it is illegal for a government agency to require that a citizen pay a fee in order for them to engage in a right stipulated by the Bill of Rights. Specifically, the ruling read:
A state may not impose a charge for the enjoyment of a right granted by the federal constitution. The power to impose a license tax on the exercise of these freedoms is indeed as potent as the power of censorship which this Court has repeatedly struck down...a person cannot be compelled 'to purchase, through a license fee or a license tax, the privilege freely granted by the constitution.'
Evidently, the Federal government MAY impose such a tax.

This is wrong, this is evil, and it leads nowhere good.
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Old 04-01-2010, 01:56 PM   #27
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good post bkt

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Old 04-02-2010, 01:22 AM   #28
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Some laws exist as a deterrent -- such as requiring people to pay well over $150 (in my county) to get a permit to buy a handgun. Other laws exist to desensitize us to eventual future laws that make it even more difficult to buy a firearm (eg: filling out a 4473).

The real question is this: Why have we tolerated this crap?
Because communism works in small increments. That's also why I doubt that I'll ever return to NY as a resident.
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:24 AM   #29
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Opaww and BKT, my hat's off to you. Great stuff.

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Old 04-03-2010, 02:01 AM   #30
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Excellent thread folks! I too feel that every law that has infringed on any sort of firearm ownership is illegal / unconstitutional.

The question was presented by one of our younger members of how we can combat the propaganda of the anti-gun groups. It is a tough one but I have an idea:

Let's put together several short documentary type advertisements that go into areas that were once very high crime, find folks who remember it, and ask them how they feel now that those areas have much looser gun control.

I am thinking of Florida as a starting place.

When people ask me about allowing felons to have firearms, I have a very simple answer:

Every human being has the right to defend their self and obtain the tools to do that. Many felons do decide to change their ways when they serve their sentence. Those felons who still decide to use a firearm in the commission of a crime also have the absolute right to be shot dead on the spot.

The commerce clause of the Constitution was never meant to be abused as it has been over the last century.

Just my .02

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