Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Legal and Activism > Debate tips for the coming fight.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-19-2012, 12:17 AM   #1
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Cattledog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Portland,OR
Posts: 1,459
Liked 588 Times on 378 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default Debate tips for the coming fight.

In the coming weeks and months, there will no doubt be an escalation of the “great gun debate.” The latest horrific tragedy has indeed sparked a renewed concern about public safety. In all fairness, the concern is warranted. Children became targets and that's not going to stand.

What was once a semi-seasonal discussion following the latest act of rampage violence has become more emotionally charged than ever. It's with that knowledge that I'd like to share some helpful debate tools for you all to use when you go forth into the interwebs or argue with your neighbor.

I'll preface this checklist by saying that I am a semi-professional counselor and hold a degree in psychology. I'm also full of surprises, yes. I've debated plenty of people here, on other forums and dolled out my fair share of well-thought-out advice. So, I'd like to give you guys some. It may be helpful or maybe you'll just ignore it all and think “what a pretentious ass cattledog is” That's fine too.
In any case, I do firmly believe that how a subject is discussed makes all the difference in making a point. So, here's how to do it right.

Rule:

1) Keep it logical. Nothing is more disarming than straight logic. Not just facts either but real 1+1+1=3 type logic. Step by step with NO wiggle room. That means....


2) No emotional opinions. Whoever your debating, about whatever, doesn't care what you think or “feel.” This seems counter-intuitive given the nature of the latest tragedy but it's more important now than ever. This is especially true if the side your debating is emotionally charged. Emotions feed on themselves and that can lead to a polarization of ideas. That's a bad thing. This means no propaganda either: “no second amendment, no first” “guns don't kill people... etc. Those are concepts to build a case, not to be used by themselves as an argument.


3) No trolling, name calling, berating or otherwise being a jackass. If your debate opponent wishes to sink to that level, let them. Your exchange will be seen and judged by others. Before you say “ I don't care what they think” Yes, you do. Unless you're just arguing to waste time, the object is to make your point understood, not just known. So, don't let you're view get discounted because you were immature.


4) Your facts are from neutral sources and current. The two biggest idiots online right now is the guy citing reference to the NRA's website arguing with the guy citing from the Brady campain.....pointless. FBI stats from their url are the best. In fact all url's cited should have a .gov or an otherwise neutral url. If you don't have the creativity to debate from raw numbers, you shouldn't be part of the discussion.


5) Leave the spokesmen out of it. They shouldn't be shaping your opinion anyway, much less driving your own talking points. It used to be that a spokesman’s job was to convert the masses to the cause. Now most of them just lazily preach to the choir. I love Ted Nugent, but the last thing I'll do in a gun control debate is cite or repeat anything he's said..... Ever. It would be like someone showing me a Bloomberg video. I'll just start preparing my response before the videos finished, if watch it in the first place.


6) Post in the lions den. There have been a few liberal views tossed around here and while some of the arguments have been ill-conceived, I do give them credit for stepping outside their comfort zone. I'm not talking about trolls. I'm talking about real people with real ideas that really want to understand and be understood. There's a big difference. Go forth and post your views where they count. I've seen more than a few threads saying “vote on this poll here!” only to find that its on a clearly Pro-firearm website. Pointless. Take a chance and contribute to the discussion on their terms. Use the tips Ive laid out and you'll be surprised how little response you get. Pro-tip: That usually happens when you've made your point and they have no way to argue it.



Words to avoid: Gun rights side.
NRA
2nd amendment
Freedom
Liberty
Socialism
Communism
Anti-gun

Words to avoid: Gun control side.
NRA
Assault
Clip
Obama
Ban
Restrict
Pro-gun
gun violence

note: Its “words” to avoid not concepts. If your argument has the identical talking points and wording of the media and every other voice on the net, it won't be noticed. Worse, it won't be understood. Be original. That gets noticed.

Now go get 'em.

__________________
Join the NRA Here!


"You can have it fast, cheap and accurate...pick any two."~Me

"Educate and Inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and they will preserve them." ~Thomas Jefferson
Cattledog is offline  
5
People Like This 
Reply With Quote

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today - It's Free!

Are you a firearms enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Firearms Talk is owned and operated by fellow firearms enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information.

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today! - Click Here


Old 12-19-2012, 12:36 AM   #2
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Zombiegirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Northwest,Indiana
Posts: 4,126
Liked 1815 Times on 994 Posts
Likes Given: 2

Default

Do you have suggestions for positive words that we could use? Your suggestions are great that you listed, but have you found any specific information that has shut down the opposition?

__________________
Zombiegirl is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:40 AM   #3
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
NotMormon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Ogden,Utah
Posts: 379
Liked 129 Times on 77 Posts
Likes Given: 66

Default

You have just outlined what 99% of the population is incapable of doing. The biggest obstacle is #2. Once you lose control of the emotional bowel movement, everything else goes down the toilet.

Sound advice though.

__________________
NotMormon is offline  
dog2000tj Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:48 AM   #4
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Cattledog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Portland,OR
Posts: 1,459
Liked 588 Times on 378 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombiegirl View Post
Do you have suggestions for positive words that we could use? Your suggestions are great that you listed, but have you found any specific information that has shut down the opposition?
Honestly, I'm irritated that the argument has come up yet again with all the same players. I have been relieved to see some journalists focus on the state of mental care though. Given that rampage violence (love that term BTW) is routinely committed by mentally disturbed people, I believe that's where the conversation needs to be steered.


Positive words for the gun rights crowd off the top of my head:
oversight
transparency
safety
security

The anti-gun groups love the terms and they are deliberately vague.

I actually forgot a good tip and that is the "bait and switch" It goes like this:

I understand your point/concern about _______ and that is important. What is also important is __________. How would you address that?
__________________
Join the NRA Here!


"You can have it fast, cheap and accurate...pick any two."~Me

"Educate and Inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and they will preserve them." ~Thomas Jefferson
Cattledog is offline  
dog2000tj Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 12:51 AM   #5
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Cattledog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Portland,OR
Posts: 1,459
Liked 588 Times on 378 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotMormon View Post
You have just outlined what 99% of the population is incapable of doing. The biggest obstacle is #2. Once you lose control of the emotional bowel movement, everything else goes down the toilet.

Sound advice though.
Id put it at more like 75%, the loud, stupid ones get all the attention so it seems like more, but yes. Its a big obstacle.
__________________
Join the NRA Here!


"You can have it fast, cheap and accurate...pick any two."~Me

"Educate and Inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and they will preserve them." ~Thomas Jefferson
Cattledog is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 01:07 AM   #6
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dixie,US South
Posts: 161
Liked 64 Times on 35 Posts

Default

Anti-gunner: We need to have an honest conversation on gun violence.

My answer: OK I have a solution.

Anti-gunner: Then let's hear it.

My answer: We need to stop forcing brave teachers to work in "Gun Free Zones" where the only thing they can do is use their body as a human shield to protect their students!

Anti-gunner: %^&*# *&$%#@^

__________________

Last edited by RaySendero; 12-19-2012 at 01:13 AM.
RaySendero is online now  
2
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 03:25 AM   #7
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Cattledog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Portland,OR
Posts: 1,459
Liked 588 Times on 378 Posts
Likes Given: 535

Default

I had posted somewhere here that I don't really have a problem with gun free zones, so long as there is armed security. IE: most government buildings...come to think of it, schools are government buildings.

I had to replace my social security card once. "No firearms" sign posted and an armed officer behind a check-in kiosk. There were 4 federal employees, myself and 5 other people in there. That warranted lethal protection. If I had to choose, I would place kids safety over the lot of us any day.

__________________
Join the NRA Here!


"You can have it fast, cheap and accurate...pick any two."~Me

"Educate and Inform the whole mass of the people. Enable them to see that it is their interest to preserve peace and order, and they will preserve them." ~Thomas Jefferson
Cattledog is offline  
dog2000tj Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 03:09 PM   #8
fmj
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
fmj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Wayne,IN
Posts: 3,454
Liked 753 Times on 437 Posts
Likes Given: 306

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombiegirl View Post
Do you have suggestions for positive words that we could use? Your suggestions are great that you listed, but have you found any specific information that has shut down the opposition?
Common sense. NEVER lose you cool. We have the facts AND the stats on our side.

The bait and switch is the BEST! Make them see it from their own point of view.

The gun control argument is fueled by emotion, FEELING. Just weather the storm and counter with calm, cool facts.

In a debate in class (Colleges are such an AWESOME place to get converts) I was discussing concealed carry. (I posted this tale soemwhere here before) This was only a couple days removed form the aurora shooting. Some simply couldnt get their heads around how a class mate, setting next to them, with a gun could possibly be a good thing. Their argument was that we had armed security (off duty LEO in full battle gear) at the main entrance.

I calmly stated, "we are 5 rooms from the back entrance of this building that has NO security other than a camera." I then asked, "Once the shooting starts, how long will it take for the armed security to run down the long corridors to get here to end the shooting? 2, 3 minutes? When the shooting starts so close to you, what will you do? Would you prefer to sit, hope and pray that someone makes it here in time to save you, or would you prefer a classmate pull out their legally concealed firearm? A firearm that until the moment of crisis you had no idea he/she had, and make an attempt to stop the killing as soon as it starts?"

This semester alone, last day of class, i had two ladies, previously anti gunners, come to me and ask if i would teach them about guns and how to shoot. I gladly said CERTAINLY. The one lass said, your arguments got me to thinking. I am a single mother, my son and I live in the country, if evil comes to visit i have no way to protect myself and my son. I MUST learn to!
__________________
"Those that would trade essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security." - Benjammin Franklin

The 1911: Turning useless trash into good fertilizer for over 100 years!!
fmj is offline  
4
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 05:38 PM   #9
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Mosin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,355
Liked 3680 Times on 1756 Posts
Likes Given: 619

Default

All you have to do is go to liveleak and type in 'burning witches' and watch a recent video of people tossing 'witches' alive and screaming into a burning pit.
This is the liberal mentality.
Logic and reason are out the window. All that matters to them is that they whip the public into a blood thirsty frenzy against gun owners and the NRA.

Prepare to defend yourselves as we are to be portrayed as the 21st century witch scourge, responsible for all that ails society.

__________________

America has fought wars across the globe, because we kept our firearms while others let dictators take theirs...

Mosin is offline  
dog2000tj Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-20-2012, 05:45 AM   #10
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 859
Liked 276 Times on 189 Posts
Likes Given: 32

Default

I just got blocked from a liberal page on Facebook for starting a huge debate. As a matter of fact, check my last posted thread to see one of the idiotic replies I received as an argument. I used factual evidence, and they still kept arguing nonsense! The way the said some stuff had the same logic as "my shirt is brown, pine trees are brown, therefore my shirt is a pine tree".

__________________
Gizord1 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Debate TWMIM Politics, Religion and Controversy 43 10-31-2012 07:50 PM
Age old debate stevem8 Semi-Auto Handguns 21 06-16-2012 02:11 AM
It Is Coming! Beware! It Is Coming! Bigcountry02 The Club House 37 11-06-2011 12:53 AM
AR Debate. Comeswithbacon AR-15 Discussion 20 07-11-2011 06:23 PM
Fight! Fight! Pick the Winner!! ScottG The Club House 20 02-08-2009 08:27 PM