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Old 03-13-2010, 10:26 PM   #101
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How does loss of freedoms translate to execution? I do agree that in rare cases an individual could regain their 2A rights but not those that commited violent crimes. That would have to be a well regulated system. There we go again, more government.
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Old 03-13-2010, 10:38 PM   #102
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How does loss of freedoms translate to execution? I do agree that in rare cases an individual could regain their 2A rights but not those that commited violent crimes. That would have to be a well regulated system. There we go again, more government.
Regarding execution: By saying that a felon should have no chance of recovering lost rights, it seems that the felon is being considered a completely lost cause and a future re-offender and less than a citizen. If someone is destined to re-offend and the purpose of the criminal justice system is to prevent crime, logic would suggest that the re-offender be eliminated from society either by execution or permanent internment at a prison. The right to life is just another right to lose, isn't it; a felon has already lost the right to liberty/freedom of movement, at least for some period of time.

I see no reason to have completely lost causes, future re-offenders, or 2nd class citizens in this society, do you?
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:18 PM   #103
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But, as I asked:

There absolutely are reformed felons, living as free men. Many have been reformed for decades, living as law abiding, society contributing citizens. Why should that group still be denied their rights as free citizens?
You seem to be relatively passionate about this topic. Boyfriend, relative...child?

If an ex-con has been living for decades contributing to society and they are truely reformed, there are paths to restore the forfeited rights. Nothing worth having is cheap whether it be in time or money. If the person you are rallying for has honestly reformed, check into legal groups that represent these folks for less than your friendly neighborhood attorney. They will do the leg work and file the proper forms.

As I say that, I can't help that this topic is just one of those that will never be agreed upon. For me, commit a felony, lose the rights forever. People don't stumble into felonies unless they are part of the purely stupid or ever ignorant. Either way, they probably can't handle a modern firearm safely. Jmho.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:18 AM   #104
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I totally agree with Skull which goes back to my first post in this thread. There is either a character flaw that allows a person to commit a felony or some lack of self control. There are exceptions to every rule but there are already enough gun owners that should not be allowed near a gun. Not to take away from the 2A but to protect it. I'm sure all of us can think of someone that for some reason or another shouldn't own a gun but still have that right. I will defend that right with my life. If only responsible, upright citizens owned guns (perfect world) we wouldn't need the NRA or the 2A or all of us that defend it. One rotten apple is just that. Remove it from the rest and make a pie. Just because a person gave up his right to own a gun doesn't make them a lost cause. They can be a contributing part of society but romoving there firearm just protects the innocent citizens from their propensity to use it illegally. Just remember they gave up that right, it wasn't taken from them. If it wasn't that important to them in the first place why should they have it reinstated.
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:34 AM   #105
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Talk about along thread..? Alright, I am still new here. However, let's get a few things straight.
"Probation" if successfully completed does not result in "expungement." It results in a dismissle of the accusation. The entire thing is dropped. It does remain on a persons record though, forever. Expungment supposedly removes the actual record... But, those are always kept handy by the FBI.

There has been a lot of talk about "Felons" in this thread. How many are aware that in some states, at least California and Colorado that I know of petty theft with a prior can be a felony as an example (California.) To the best of my knowledge Colorado also passed a similar law concerning Domestic Violence. I'll leave that one to Gun Owners of America to tear apart...

Another issue in this thread seems to be the type of crime. Is felony check fraud something that should trash someones rights forever? How many people here have never bounced a check, or over drawn a credit card? Folks, it is not just an issue between you and your bank. Even, in most states, a first time it can be interpreted as fraud... In this day and age of Identity Theft...! Two or more...? OOPS! You are a "Felon." The States response appears to be..? "Sorry about that boy." (Or girl, let's not keep this sexist...")

Then we get to the "They are felons" argument not related to the above portion of this post. I look at it as : Didn't we lock them up long enough? Well? Yes there are arguments that are valid concerning Parole. it still does not address the question though. Did we, as a people, not lock them up long enough? If not didn't they pay for their crimes? If not, is that their fault? (s)

Then we get to the rabid is what I call it. Application of Adult laws toward young people. Life without parole for 12 year old's...? Nope,I ain't buying it. And yes, that is for anything...

I spent almost three years as a Volunteer "counselor" for the California Youth Authority. I didn't work with the boys and girls that went to Carl Holten Country Club. My kids were Preston School of Industries and Duvel State Penitentiary... The most violent prison in the state at that time. Were they criminals? Yes. Mostly because they were victimized by their very own parents...


Have I peed into enough folks bowl of oatmeal yet?

Well? I am ready to accept the incoming as it is said ....

I happen to believe that once a person has proved them selves to be decent people? Give them all of their rights back. No Court orders or anything at all needed. No pardons, nada! No associated convicting prosecutor agreement, nothing more. This is arbitrary, but say what five years clean? Ten years? How do we, as a society decide "clean?"

And no, I am not at all sorry for saying what I believe.

Do I have a dog in this fight? You bet your bottom dollar I do! My Stepson that I raised got his ass beat by my Daughter in Law in Pueblo Colorado...
And he got convicted of Domestic Violence.

Guess what folks? There is no remedies available to those Misdemeanors...
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Old 03-14-2010, 07:39 AM   #106
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I apologize for the typos...
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:28 PM   #107
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Talk about along thread..? Alright, I am still new here. However, let's get a few things straight.
"Probation" if successfully completed does not result in "expungement." It results in a dismissle of the accusation. The entire thing is dropped. It does remain on a persons record though, forever. Expungment supposedly removes the actual record... But, those are always kept handy by the FBI.

There has been a lot of talk about "Felons" in this thread. How many are aware that in some states, at least California and Colorado that I know of petty theft with a prior can be a felony as an example (California.) To the best of my knowledge Colorado also passed a similar law concerning Domestic Violence. I'll leave that one to Gun Owners of America to tear apart...

Another issue in this thread seems to be the type of crime. Is felony check fraud something that should trash someones rights forever? How many people here have never bounced a check, or over drawn a credit card? Folks, it is not just an issue between you and your bank. Even, in most states, a first time it can be interpreted as fraud... In this day and age of Identity Theft...! Two or more...? OOPS! You are a "Felon." The States response appears to be..? "Sorry about that boy." (Or girl, let's not keep this sexist...")

Then we get to the "They are felons" argument not related to the above portion of this post. I look at it as : Didn't we lock them up long enough? Well? Yes there are arguments that are valid concerning Parole. it still does not address the question though. Did we, as a people, not lock them up long enough? If not didn't they pay for their crimes? If not, is that their fault? (s)

Then we get to the rabid is what I call it. Application of Adult laws toward young people. Life without parole for 12 year old's...? Nope,I ain't buying it. And yes, that is for anything...

I spent almost three years as a Volunteer "counselor" for the California Youth Authority. I didn't work with the boys and girls that went to Carl Holten Country Club. My kids were Preston School of Industries and Duvel State Penitentiary... The most violent prison in the state at that time. Were they criminals? Yes. Mostly because they were victimized by their very own parents...


Have I peed into enough folks bowl of oatmeal yet?

Well? I am ready to accept the incoming as it is said ....

I happen to believe that once a person has proved them selves to be decent people? Give them all of their rights back. No Court orders or anything at all needed. No pardons, nada! No associated convicting prosecutor agreement, nothing more. This is arbitrary, but say what five years clean? Ten years? How do we, as a society decide "clean?"

And no, I am not at all sorry for saying what I believe.

Do I have a dog in this fight? You bet your bottom dollar I do! My Stepson that I raised got his ass beat by my Daughter in Law in Pueblo Colorado...
And he got convicted of Domestic Violence.

Guess what folks? There is no remedies available to those Misdemeanors...

Ok, you can have your belief.. I have mine and mine is 180 opposite of yours. I believe that people have to be held accountable for their actions, period. This mentality that people aren’t responsible because of their environment, to me, is bull pucky. If this was true then everyone that was poor, or beaten by their parents, or abused in any plethora of ways would behave the same way and we all know that doesn’t happen. No when it comes right down to it a person has to be held responsible for their actions and this is what our country has come down to “it’s not their fault because they were mistreated”. Again bull pucky, I am so sick and tired of peoples explanation of “it’s someone else’s fault”, well cowboy up and accept you are responsible for your actions. And this is my opinion.
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:34 PM   #108
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All well and good. I also "like" the way that you put words into my mouth without actually responding. Where the hell did I say that those people do not need to be held responsible for their actions..?

What I have a problem with is people, apparently people like you, that have decided that no person ever changes, and, more importantly, that mistakes are never made. I have seen three people in my lifetime that were sent to prison on bogus crap whipped up by prosecutors that were simply out to get more feathers for their war bonnets. All three were later cleared completely, and all three got a kiss my ass from the law even though they had spent years locked up. Also, since you appear to have missed it Einstein? I was part of the system that did that to them.

I suppose that we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:12 PM   #109
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All well and good. I also "like" the way that you put words into my mouth without actually responding. Where the hell did I say that those people do not need to be held responsible for their actions..?

What I have a problem with is people, apparently people like you, that have decided that no person ever changes, and, more importantly, that mistakes are never made. I have seen three people in my lifetime that were sent to prison on bogus crap whipped up by prosecutors that were simply out to get more feathers for their war bonnets. All three were later cleared completely, and all three got a kiss my ass from the law even though they had spent years locked up. Also, since you appear to have missed it Einstein? I was part of the system that did that to them.

I suppose that we will just have to agree to disagree.

I will agree to disagree, however, go back and re-read my post.. nowhere did I say you said people should not be held responsible for their actions, I said I.. I not you, I was tired of people not taking responsibility. I was not putting words in your mouth I was expressing MYopinion.

I also have seen injustice in our system and I did, and still do, everything I can to correct any error that is made. There are procedures that can be taken to give felons rights back if, as in the cases you stated above, if they are cleared of the charges and found to have been convicted wrongly then they are not felons. I'm talking about felons that are tried, convicted and sentenced. Those felons I don't believe should be given certain rights back, voting and gun ownership being two of them. BTW the Einstein comment was uncalled for. This is a discourse of a disagreement on ideals.
Resorting to name calling is an indication of a closed mind and it’s your way or no way.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:38 PM   #110
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It sure didn't appear to be just your opinion. More like a judgment the way that I read it, hence my comment. We are probably closer in thought than either of us believe.

By example, some criminal types have proved incorrigible and beyond rehabilitation. Violent sex offenders and child rapists come to mind, and, for those types? I still have to wonder about imprisonment. The death penalty applied swift and sure would relieve society of their troublesome types...

But say? For the person that bounced two checks because their math was bad, and some prosecutor needed to generate some self worth rather than exercise a little discretion? I have serious problems with grouping those people into the same category as a mass murderer.

Have a nice day,and I apologize for misconstruing what I read.
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