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-   -   Comparing CC holders to First Responders? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/comparing-cc-holders-first-responders-107799/)

chloeshooter 06-13-2014 11:47 AM

Comparing CC holders to First Responders?
 
The link below is to a petition to the interim CEO of Target Corporation:

https://www.change.org/petitions/john-mulligan-target-welcome-lawful-gun-owners

In a nutshell, it is asking that CC rights be observed by Target, which I agree with, but then makes what I consider to be the most misguided of statements:

"We need more first responders -- people who are on the scene and can stop attacks more quickly....... If law-abiding people, who are trained and licensed to carry guns, are blocked from shopping at Target, only the Second Responders (police) will be available to help, eventually, when they arrive."

No. This is NOT what conceal carry is for. It is to protect YOU. Whoever wrote this letter is either very unfamiliar with laws surrounding self-defense justification or just does not agree with it. The LAST thing we need is a bunch of folks who consider themselves 'trained' because they can shoot nice holes in paper making snap life and death decisions as unofficial "Johnny First Responder". We are not deputized nor empowered just because we have CC permits...it simply does not work that way

"Every month, many Americans carry guns into Target stores with no ill effects. Many or most of these customers will stop shopping at Target if the corporate owners require shoppers to be defenseless"

Um, no. Target will lose very little business. Let's not be kidding ourselves, not that many of us conceal carry as a percentage of the overall population.

Last thought - an interim CEO is not going to make a call on a decision like this in a million years.

OKAY so it sounds like I think this letter is a big waste of time - it probably is - but not because of what it requests (observe state laws regarding cc) but the rationale it gives (because a cc responder will stop mass shootings) is not correct nor legal most places

WNGMSTR 06-13-2014 12:10 PM

I was listening to a radio program yesterday and they had on a guy from a Mn CC org. that was lobbying Target to not take Doombergs pressure.

Can't remember the orgs. name ......

Rick1967 06-13-2014 12:12 PM

It is legal in Colorado. And if I were on the scene when it started I would try to stop them. That is why I carry...to protect myself, my loved ones and if necessary other innocent people.

chloeshooter 06-13-2014 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick1967 (Post 1589721)
It is legal in Colorado. And if I were on the scene when it started I would try to stop them. That is why I carry...to protect myself, my loved ones and if necessary other innocent people.

unless you have had situational training, there is a very good chance you could shoot the wrong person or, as we have seen recently in Las Vegas.....get yourself shot

John_Deer 06-13-2014 01:57 PM

I am not a hero. I will hide. Unless an active shooter stumbles upon me I am going to wait for the Calvary. I don't carry a shotgun or rifle into target. A pistol is a weapon of last resort. Last resort means you have no choice, it's either shoot or be shot. A pistol of any kind is a damn poor offensive weapon.

I would do all I could to get innocent people to a safe area and try to calm people who are ready to panic.

seancslaughter 06-13-2014 02:00 PM

I am pretty sure that in all 50 states the Penal code has an exception for "in defense of others" that covers CC holders when faced with such a scenario. I see what you are saying and to a point agree and I definitely wouldn't call a CC holder a first responder, but would rather say "on site citizen responder" and yes the guy that put the petition up is an idiot

seancslaughter 06-13-2014 02:05 PM

Me personally am going towards the gunfire because I HAVE had training in active shooter takedowns and I would much rather take a bullet trying to take him/her down than not doing anything and having more unarmed civilians die, but thats just me. Now if my family is with me I will get them to safety before attempting to locate and attack.

Argyle_Armoring 06-13-2014 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seancslaughter (Post 1589753)
Me personally am going towards the gunfire because I HAVE had training in active shooter takedowns and I would much rather take a bullet trying to take him/her down than not doing anything and having more unarmed civilians die, but thats just me. Now if my family is with me I will get them to safety before attempting to locate and attack.

This is me as well. I am an officer. If my family is with me I'm getting them to the van and the Hell out of Dodge while I stay behind and engage the shooter. My wife and I have gone over this dozens of times and she knows what to do to get the boys out of harms way. She knows I'm going back in after the suspect.

My biggest fear is not nuclear war or dying in a fire. It's not doing something when I could have. I don't want to play that "what if" scenario in my head the rest of my life and live with that guilt.

seancslaughter 06-13-2014 02:49 PM

and that is why I war game scenarios in my head everyday! Even doing that prepares you if a situation arises. What would I do if a carjacker stuck a gun in my face? What would I do if someone pulled a knife on me while walking to my car from work? What would I do if I was at the store and an active shooter starts shooting? These wargames in your mind help prepare and help prevent panicking in a situation. I am the same way Argyle I already beat myself up over losing 2 teammates in Iraq that I had nothing to do with I was back at the compound on my QRF rotation and they were out on armed recon. Two weeks prior to the mission they were killed on I was on an armed recon as a dismount team leader in a Bradley IFV when an IED hit us and we escaped with minor wounds because the engine took the brunt of the hit. Now my friends went on the same mission 2 weeks later and were hit with an IED about the same size as the one that got me, but it hit under the troop compartment and lit up the fuel pods and ammo links. Now if I still feel terrible about that and there was nothing I could do what the hell would happen if a scenario like this arose and people were dying and being wounded and I did nothing when I had the chance to stop it?

John_Deer 06-13-2014 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argyle_Armoring (Post 1589764)
This is me as well. I am an officer. If my family is with me I'm getting them to the van and the Hello out of Dodge while I stay behind and engage the shooter. My wife and I have gone over this dozens of times and she knows what to do to get the boys out of harms way. She knows I'm going back in after the suspect.

My biggest fear is not nuclear war or dying a fire. It's not doing something when I could have. I don't want to play that "what if" scenario in my head the rest of my life and live with that guilt.

I am not trying to put you down or shine a negative light on your words. When you go to target with the wife and kids quite often all you will have is a pocket pistol or the easiest to carry rig you own.

Many of us have been trained to clear buildings. But we were trained to have superior or at least equal firepower when clearing a building. You know what happens when you bring a pistol to a rifle fight.


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