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Old 02-10-2013, 12:59 AM   #51
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The sheer number of sales would, I believe, constitute a prima facie mens rea in the eyes of the law.

The prosecution will argue that 31 sales in two weeks clearly establishes intent to ignore the law.
Proving that she purchased 31 firearms proves nothing other than she bought 31 guns. Mens Rea is a little bit more complicated than that. The whole point is to prove someone knowingly broke the law. I cant say that many know the ffl regulations, and as such its hard to prove she knowingly broke the law...dont ya think? Aside from ffl regulations, there is no law in Ohio that would stop you from making a private sale (even 31 of them) WITHOUT abackground check. You just cant knowingly (see mens rea) sell to a convicted felon. If you ask a guy and he says no, then your legal.

My understanding is that the feds essentially noted the amount purchased and based on that alone investigated her?
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:04 AM   #52
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Proving that she purchased 31 firearms proves nothing other than she bought 31 guns. Mens Rea is a little bit more complicated than that. The whole point is to prove someone knowingly broke the law. I cant say that many know the ffl regulations, and as such its hard to prove she knowingly broke the law...dont ya think? Aside from ffl regulations, there is no law in Ohio that would stop you from making a private sale (even 31 of them) WITHOUT abackground check. You just cant knowingly (see mens rea) sell to a convicted felon. If you ask a guy and he says no, then your legal.

My understanding is that the feds essentially noted the amount purchased and based on that alone investigated her?
They've made cases before on dealing without a license with less than 31. I agree that they would be hard pressed to make a "straw man" case, but making a "dealing without a license" case is much easier. And remember ignorance is not a defense.

If she had sold 31 guns from her collection the BATFags wouldn't have leg to stand on. But to purchase and resell that many in such a short time satisfies mens rea I believe. Right or wrong it's the law, and she pretty obviously had intent to break it. At least that's the way the prosecutor will frame it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:37 AM   #53
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....But to purchase and resell that many in such a short time satisfies mens rea I believe....
And that is the key point and one that rather clearly demonstrates intent... in this case, intent to profit in the same manner as a commercial seller.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:43 AM   #54
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It is not required to show that a person intended to break a law. It is necessary to show that the person DID an illegal act (actus rea) and MEANT to do that thing (Mens rea). Whether they KNEW that it was illegal is a matter to be raised in defense- rather weakly (Ignorance of the law is no excuse).

When a prohibited person is found with a firearm- ESPECIALLY a nice, new firearm, BATFE will check manufacturer to see where it went. Mr. Dealer, you recieved this gun on 1 Feb. When did you sell it, and to who? We sold it 4 Feb to Sally Stupid. Sally, what did you do with the pistol you bought 4 Feb, and we took off a drug salesman 6 Feb?

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Old 02-10-2013, 11:02 AM   #55
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Buying and selling guns as a business, requires an FFL, right or wrong, that law is on the books. The fact she only got 5 years seems like a slim sentence. Had any of her sales led to lawless acts, I am sure she would have landed in more trouble.

Now, how about we follow the Fast & Furious episode in American politics, and give everyone connected 5 years in the slammer.

Seems like one law used on one US citizen, could us used squarely across the board. How many of those politicians had FFL's to distribute firearms? That is what, 2,000 firearms? If 30 gets you 5, what is 2,000 worth?
AR10, good point but, the POTUS has sealed the evidence under executive order in Fast & Furious so no one will ever be held liable in that senario.
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Old 02-10-2013, 11:36 AM   #56
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And this is why the firearms purchase limits are being advocated.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/08/16895120-virginia-woman-admits-buying-31-handguns-in-two-weeks?lite

A Manassas woman pleaded guilty to violating federal firearms laws after buying 31 handguns over a two-week span at three Virginia gun shows.

Kimberly Dinkins, 41, pleaded guilty Thursday in federal court in Alexandria to dealing firearms without a license. She faces up to five years in prison.

Court records show that Dinkins resold all of the guns for a profit.


Does anybody think these handguns are being bought by productive members of society?
In this day and age a lot of people are buying guns with the intent to resell them for a profit. It's called supply and demand, and it's capitalism at it's best.

When your LGS doesn't have high capacity firearms on the shelves it becomes a sellers market. I'm guilty of it to an extent. I've got two M&P 40's NIB that I may decide to make money on at a later date. True, I'm not in this woman's league, but the thought is there, and I'm not the only one thinking it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 12:29 PM   #57
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:20 PM   #58
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In this day and age a lot of people are buying guns with the intent to resell them for a profit. It's called supply and demand, and it's capitalism at it's best.

When your LGS doesn't have high capacity firearms on the shelves it becomes a sellers market. I'm guilty of it to an extent. I've got two M&P 40's NIB that I may decide to make money on at a later date. True, I'm not in this woman's league, but the thought is there, and I'm not the only one thinking it.
Doc, the difference. I'm sure you are smart enough that you didn't rush out and start buying guns the day after Sandy Hook,. with the idea of making a good profit on them a few weeks later.

Regardless of how much we may disagree with a particular law, openly violating it makes us all look like criminals.

That woman did us no favors and I have no sympathy for her.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:39 PM   #59
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Doc, the difference. I'm sure you are smart enough that you didn't rush out and start buying guns the day after Sandy Hook,. with the idea of making a good profit on them a few weeks later.

Regardless of how much we may disagree with a particular law, openly violating it makes us all look like criminals.

That woman did us no favors and I have no sympathy for her.
Since the November reelection of Obama and the Sandy Hook School crime I've known of more first time firearm purchasers then I've known in the previous ten years. They all had been thinking about purchasing but it took the election and tragedy to get them to make a move, primarily for self defense. I don't know of anyone who has purchased for financial speculation but I have used that reasoning to convince my wife the new Sig purchase was a logical financial decision and, it worked.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:49 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by 1911love
I wouldn't buy more than one handgun in a five day period. If you buy more than one in a five day period you are red flagged by the ATF. What a great law that stops crime in its tracks!!!
I've bought more than one handgun in a five day period several times...doesn't seem to have hampered me buying more. I've never had a problem.
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