Bruce Boyer's open carry report for Thousand Oaks street fair; CA 10-16-2011 - Page 2
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Old 10-26-2011, 06:22 PM   #11
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Default Happy I evoke some thoughts. A reply and rebuttal.

The re are several points here:
1. Is that of Open vs Concealed. There are good arguments for both, but that assumes that one has an option. In So. california CCW is NOT an option. 12 million people in LA County 214 CCWs. Sheriff Baca is antigun for non-LE in CA he gets 'discretion', and he says no (unless you are a big time $$ donor). This is why the need for 'Shall-issue". But since the argument is what to do today, there is only one option, OPEN CARRY. If in thefutuire we reestablish our rights to carry concealled, then we can have a valid discussion on the merits.
2. Political impact. If by some amazing stroke of victory, say we got 10,000 So-cal folks who were able to get CCWs from Sacramento, or Shasta Co Sheriffs, and then go around CCW in So Cal. What political impact do they make? Answer; 10,000 people who will more strongly defend their right. 10,000 who already do so because those are the folks who would go through the ordeal of moving to another County, schmoozing through the processs to get the CCW at the 'discretion' of a Sheriff and move back to So cal. Net gain, minimal. Now let us consider the political impact of 10,000 people (many or most being women) OPEN-CARRYING (OC) in So-Cal. They need not obtain any 'permit', they can go out today. When we are out and about in our daily lives, on an average day 100 people will see you OC. They are the people in El Pollo Loco when you have lunch, the dry cleaners, the bakery where I stopped in to get a coffee and pastry, the hair salon. 100 people per day see a man or better, a woman carrying a gun, who is nice pleasant and just another neighbor/customer. Really no different than anyone else. A Man with a gun (always better that it's a woman) does not equal danger, it equals safety.They have seen it with their own eye. They become acclimated to it. It's fine, you see it all the time, no big deal, whatever, so what, yeah and what about it? We change their perception, their viewpoint. How many? Do the math. 10,000 OC impacts ONE MILLION people a DAY! In sixty days that would impact everyone in LA County FIVE times. That changes the perception of twelve million people!
OC is by far the most effective means to impact the population is a positive way. This would accomplish more from 10,000 gun owners in sixty days than the milllions of blog posts and internet stories and conversations amongst ourselves will in 100 years! Conversing amonst ourselves is equivelant to the Church sending it's missionaries to the church choir!
#3 Positive effect on Law enforcement: I will post this later, let you all digest and debate #1 and #2
#4 The superior crime deterrent value of OC.
Again later.
#5 Dispelling the assumption that OC reduces one's tactical posture as opposed to CCW, it changes it, but change does not equal deficient, can be better, wore or equal. Very much depends on the situation variables.
Again later, but really a moot point as CCW is NOT an option.

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Old 10-27-2011, 08:33 PM   #12
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Default Can we get some more creative comments or input here?

Please do share your thoughts.Open Carry is a huge issue and I welcome your thoughts, reaction and input.

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Old 10-27-2011, 09:33 PM   #13
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Well my friend, it seems your reports, as well written and colorful as they are, are falling on deaf ears here. Just the way things are I suppose as nobody I know would prefer to OC when they can CC, nevermind unloaded. If I'm not mistaken, OC in CA is done and over with as of 1/1/12, so please share with us what you plan to do then? You obviously have a talent for the written word and it would be a shame to let it go to waste on a defunct subject such as OC. Maybe contribute to this site with more relevant subject matter? Just my .02

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Old 10-27-2011, 10:00 PM   #14
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OC an UNLOADED weapon does NOT equate to public safety. PERIOD!

Other than that AZL covered everything i could/would say just fine.

(sticking out like a dildo @ disney land) Colorful. Well done! I'm still giggling like a school girl at a chipendales show.

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Old 11-01-2011, 04:39 PM   #15
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I'd be curious to read what the "positive effect on law enforcement" might be. Seeing as how I have a couple of decades of experience in that particular arena.

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Old 11-01-2011, 04:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceBoyer View Post
Please do share your thoughts.Open Carry is a huge issue and I welcome your thoughts, reaction and input.
Okay...here's the deal from MY perspective.

You SHOULD have the RIGHT to carry concealed or open. I won't enter debate about that, or brook any nonsense accusing me of being anti 2A or an elitist cop. The Second Ammendment is pretty self-explanatory.

The reality, however, is that in Commifornia you don't have the RIGHT to carry period. Open or concealed....at best you have the PRIVILIGE of doing so. Californians allowed their RIGHTS to be stomped upon and pissed them away...it was 1968 as I recall when the Black Panthers did their armed march on Sacremento and got the politicians bustles in a bunch, and ***POOF*** away went your RIGHTS (stolen by apathy and political agenda). Fast forward to 2011...your last remaining shred of a "right" to carry...***POOF***...gone. See ya. Was nice knowin' ya.

Oddly....the Bloods, Crips, and others of the gang banger ilk will be largely unaffected by the new legislation. I am also willing to bet the farm that they carry their guns concealed, fully loaded, and aren't impressed or deterred in ANY way by the sight of someone carrying an unloaded pistol. Public safety has NOT been enhanced.

Further proof that the majority of the people who voted in California are idiots...they elected Jerry Brown after all. Point made.

So...now you have a distant memory of a free state where you were could live as free men and women. Shame on you all for letting it happen. Shame on you for carrying your unloaded guns and getting in the face of cops (who, as I can tell you do NOT make the law, we simply have to enforce the law, and pissing in OUR pockets will get you exactly NOWHERE). Shame on you for giving the lefties and the antis MORE ammunition to use against you because "they" saw a bunch of guys/gals getting in the face of cops, mall ninjas, or just about anyone they could in the name of excercising "rights" thay they didn't really have, and as a result, polarized the politicians who took away the "privilige" of carry an unloaded gun (paperweight).

Good for you. You seem to have done the job FOR the other side.

I won't get into dogma, doctrine, or sound tactics of CC versus OC...did it. My views won't change.

Arizona, Alaska, Vermont, Wyoming....FREE STATES with CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY. RIGHTS AFFIRMED, PROTECTED, and RESPECTED.
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:17 PM   #17
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Default The pos. effect on law enforcement answer.

The law enforcement got to meet a gun owner who was not a crip/Blood domestic Violance/Robber. A pleasant friendly, good citizen, their neighbor. Someone who knew the law far better than they did yet was not condescending, who was helpful and had the shared goal of making our community safer. Someone who would be defendingtheir wives and daughters by the fact that he openly carries and a citizen who would step up to defend his community, includingtheir wives/daughters.

Do you all agree or disagree with that pretext?

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Old 11-02-2011, 09:45 PM   #18
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Default Is OC going away on 1-1-2012, really?

OC carry is not going away on 1-1-2012. But you thougth it was, how is that? Well if you read the short synopsis of AB 144 that stated that persons may not OC, you would have thought that. If you read the bill you will understand it does not make OC a crime. It makes open carry by non-exempt people, in many places or circumstances a crime.
The list of exemptions is not only vast but it fails to establish a threshhold of Probable Cause to determine if someone is in violation.

For example, Officer Dave observes a guy OC at a Street Fair. That individual who is openly (that is key 'openly', not trying to conceal what he is doing, criminals make an attempt to conceal, when people do things in an open manner it is because they are not breaking law, or at least they do not think so, that's intent, a requirement) carrying a firearm. So upon what basis is the individual breaking the law? The only option is to ask him, and if he states that he is not someone who is exempt or possibly doing something that is not within the list of exemptions which are not based opon where, but upon why.

If the person chooses not to identify himself as someone who is not an exempt person, their is no probable cause. Should the officer arrest, it's a violation of his rights, even if he is not exempt. If he is exempt, it's a bigger violation of his rights. The person can be exempt if the person is of the following, an attorney, a bill collector, a person employed in collecting financial information, a security guard (in uniform is not required) and of coures an active or retired Law Enf.
Read the bill. I have with one attorney, and will with several others! The exemptions are many and impossible to determine (unless the person goes "well officer I am not a person who is exempt or someone who is doing something that would not qualify as an exemption, this is called admitting guilt).

So is that guy an attorney, a bill collector, a guy with a security guard card, or a retired cop from New Mexico?? The only way to know is to ask, if the person chooses to just smile and ignore the question, no PC! No PC, no arrest. If they do arrest, fine file charges. Based on what evidence? As they have violated our 14th Amendemnt, some people are criminals if they OC while othes are not. Unless one admits they a are not an exempt person, the cannot file any charges.Lets say they file charges. They have to prove the officer had probable cause to believe the 'suspect' was not exempt "How do you know he was not a bill collector, or an attorney, or a cop or a security guard not in uniform?? Cannot convict as there is no proof that suspect/accused was not at the time a security guard/attorney etc etc. One is not required to prove their innoncence, and they cannot prove you are not a bill collector, attorney etc. Motion to dismiss, hello Fed Civil Rights lawsuit.
Wiull there be lots of folks OC who are retired cops, attorneys etc, who will just 'smile'. You bet! The task is to get as many as possible and see that everyone else knows his 5th Amendment rights as well as his or her 2nd!

How big a Civil rights lawsuit is it when LASD or SDSD arrests a bunch of attorneys. retired cops and sec guys, then file charges, to hae them dismissed? ENOURMOUS!This is called effective resistance that wins! Winning is the key, not hiding. This is plan B. There is plan A and C. The plans will all be up on the SonsofLibertyLAdotcom website soon.

In a State of 30 million people, fifty stalwart men and women can defeat them and restore our liberty. It's a lot easier with five hundred, with five thousand it's a slam dunk. But it must start with one. One we have. Do we have two?

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Old 11-02-2011, 09:58 PM   #19
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Well, good luck with that.

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Old 11-02-2011, 10:00 PM   #20
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We have one here...me...who thinks you should be banned for flaming. Do we have two?

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