A British Attitude to Guns and Self Defence. - Page 7
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:32 PM   #61
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I lived there 5 years. I was left with the impression that SD was not a right in the UK. You must try to retreat and only use enough force to repel the attack, bla bla bla. "Stand your ground" it ain't.
As a retired police officer, you should be well aware of this mindset.
All I can say is that you might wish to have a good lawyer (Barrister?) on speed dial. Every SD case that involved a firearm seemed to result in Her Majesty's prosecutors trying to make an example of the person who wouldn't be a victim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)
They hosed that guy bad. The scumbag he shot was made out to be a friggen martyr. Turn on local news and that kids smirking mug was all over the news. It was a circus. In UT Mr. Martin would have got a handshake from the police.




NO! No one needs to know you have a shotgun ready for his return.

Also, you might wish to request that this thread be deleted. If it comes to pass, this thread might constitute premeditation in the eyes of said prosecutors. I used to read the magistrate's reports in the paper so...I don't wish to sound overly negative, but I hold the UK justice system in pretty low regard. Beat up a man, get a fine. Kick that man's dog and do hard time. Hell, outright murder is only good for 7 years, apparently. Is car theft (w/ the obligatory burning) still considered minor teen mischief?

What you didn't mention was that MR Martin had his legally owned firearm removed because he shot at the car of a salesman that was on the lane to his house. He then obtained a illegal shotgun that he used to shoot two buglers killing one 16 year old. The evidence showed that one was running away when shot. I would suggest that if a home owner in America shot a burglar one of who was running away with a illegally obtained shotgun he could find himself in trouble.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:35 PM   #62
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I would suggest that if a home owner in America shot a burglar one of who was running away with a illegally obtained shotgun he could find himself in trouble.
Not if he had good neighbors and a good shovel.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:46 PM   #63
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What you didn't mention was that MR Martin had his legally owned firearm removed because he shot at the car of a salesman that was on the lane to his house. He then obtained a illegal shotgun that he used to shoot two buglers killing one 16 year old. The evidence showed that one was running away when shot. I would suggest that if a home owner in America shot a burglar one of who was running away with a illegally obtained shotgun he could find himself in trouble.
Never heard mention of the illegally obtained shotgun. You'd think it would have come up at some point. Seems to me that would have kept him prison longer. As for the running away part, it's really hard to see in the dark. Breaking into occupied houses at night should be dangerous. I can't find it in my heart to feel a bit sorry for the bastards.
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Old 07-30-2012, 09:56 PM   #64
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Never heard mention of the illegally obtained shotgun. You'd think it would have come up at some point. Seems to me that would have kept him prison longer. As for the running away part, it's really hard to see in the dark. Breaking into occupied houses at night should be dangerous. I can't find it in my heart to feel a bit sorry for the bastards.

Jurors also heard that Martin had a history of gun-related misbehaviour, including firing upon a car six years before - an incident which led to his shotgun certificate being revoked.

Martin, who was in the house at the time, opened fire with an illegally-held pump-action shotgun.
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:07 PM   #65
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an illegally-held pump-action shotgun.
Pinky-finger extended?




For what it's worth, the shotgun case reminds me of the case a couple of years ago in New York City, NY involving a shop owner who had his shotgun taken away by the "authorities" after successfully defending his employees and shop from robbers. It is only fair that you know such nonsense does happen in isolated pockets of idiocy over here as well. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/14/nyregion/14shoot.html?pagewanted=all
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Old 07-30-2012, 11:25 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manta

Jurors also heard that Martin had a history of gun-related misbehaviour, including firing upon a car six years before - an incident which led to his shotgun certificate being revoked.

Martin, who was in the house at the time, opened fire with an illegally-held pump-action shotgun.
And killed a guy who had been arrested 29 times by the time he was sixteen years old. Offenses which included assault of a police officer. The night he was killed, he had just been released on parole.

Did I read that correctly? Is this accurate?
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Old 07-31-2012, 12:20 AM   #67
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Tack, just bear in mind that the cops don't write the laws they are sworn to enforce, they don't issue the court orders, no-knock waerrants they are ordered to serve, and most of them don't like this krap any better than you do.
Oh yes, I understand that, however, "I was following orders", is not an excuse. Sooner or later Libs will get another chance to ram a gun ban down out throats just like they rammed healthcare through.

When that day comes LEO's will have to decide which side they stand with.

I guarantee life expectancy for cops will be much higher for those who either immediately resign or publicy refuse enforcement.

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Old 07-31-2012, 10:19 AM   #68
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Some interesting comments. Here's, hopefully, a few more.

Cops don't make the laws. There are many bad laws made that they enforce. They moan about them to each other. In UK at least, they do damn all about applying pressure to get them changed.

Tony Martin.

He was his own worst enemy. Three things were against him. One, he used a nasty wicked evil gun thing. Two, he killed a poor unfortunate boy of 16. Three, he shot him in the back. UK no longer understands guns. The 16 year old's demise was the first decent thing he had done in his life, he was a committed career criminal and full time scumbag. In poor lighting conditions, a torch flashing can easily present a silhouette, and you never can tell which way a silhouette is facing.

Tony Martin was acquitted on appeal of murder, and convicted of manslaughter. Personally, I think he deserved to do time. He failed to properly nail the other pikey.

An interesting legal note on the first trial. He stood trial accused of murdering the 16 year old, wounding his mate, and possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life. He was convicted of the murder and wounding, but acquitted of the charge of possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life! How can that be when he admitted he had the (illiegally held even) firearm to defend himself and his property, and he sure as hell endangered a couple of lives. Oh well, that's the law for you.

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Old 07-31-2012, 10:40 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
I lived there 5 years. I was left with the impression that SD was not a right in the UK. You must try to retreat and only use enough force to repel the attack, bla bla bla. "Stand your ground" it ain't.

Actually, it's not as bad as you might think. There is no obligation to retreat, unless you could disengage in perfect safety, and in your own home not even then. The Criminal Law Act 1967 states:-

Use of force in making arrest, etc..

(1)A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large. .
(2)Subsection (1) above shall replace the rules of the common law on the question when force used for a purpose mentioned in the subsection is
justified by that purpose.

Part of the problem is that the police, and by that I mean the police as an entity rather than individual officers, hate the idea of self defence. I will justify that statement by the reaction that is suggested in my initial scenario.

The law, both case and statute are actually pretty good. It's just the interpretation and ignorance that cause the problems.


As a retired police officer, you should be well aware of this mindset.
All I can say is that you might wish to have a good lawyer (Barrister?) on speed dial. Every SD case that involved a firearm seemed to result in Her Majesty's prosecutors trying to make an example of the person who wouldn't be a victim.

Sounds fair. Knowing the law helps too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)
They hosed that guy bad. The scumbag he shot was made out to be a friggen martyr. Turn on local news and that kids smirking mug was all over the news. It was a circus. In UT Mr. Martin would have got a handshake from the police.

See my post on the subject.

NO! No one needs to know you have a shotgun ready for his return.

You are correct, but why should a person have to hide the fact from the people who are supposed to, but mostly won't, defend you?

Also, you might wish to request that this thread be deleted. If it comes to pass, this thread might constitute premeditation in the eyes of said prosecutors.

Nah! There is case law that supports preparation for self defence. Have a read, if you're really bored one day.
Here

I used to read the magistrate's reports in the paper so...I don't wish to sound overly negative, but I hold the UK justice system in pretty low regard. Beat up a man, get a fine. Kick that man's dog and do hard time. Hell, outright murder is only good for 7 years, apparently. Is car theft (w/ the obligatory burning) still considered minor teen mischief?
Can't argue with much of that for sure.
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Old 07-31-2012, 07:50 PM   #70
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[QUOTE=TDS92A;887299]

6) To the individual from New Port Richey Florida, I feel for you. Based on your printed words about the LEOs in your area, you must have some really lousy ones. Those found here in NW Florida are top notch for the most part.

[QUOTE] That would be me.

BUT, my experience with NPR police has been zero. I must defer to your

statement of the Florida police, as all of my negative experiences have been

in northern states, where nanny-pols and nanny cops treat LACs like they

live behind the iron curtain.

Here, in NPR, in Pasco county, where @75,000 people are CWPs, we have

a polite society, with very few pushy, loud, rude Democrats, IME...

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