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Old 02-23-2011, 05:58 AM   #91
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Nothing I've done gets near that though.
You got that right. If a bomb went off a mile from me, I'd still probably get knocked over. Fighting in a war takes something that I just don't have. I take my hat off for your father. He is the kind of person I think of when you say soldier. You should be proud.

Thank you for your input on Columbine and the movie.

On a totally unrelated note, How long have you been playing drums? I have had a HUGE desire over the last few years to learn. Is it worth it?
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:24 AM   #92
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First let me say that I have not watched the movie, and I have no intention of watching the movie, so I cannot comment on the movie and I will not comment on Moore.
What I will do, is give my thoughts on why there are more of these spree type shootings.
First and foremost is parenting. For whatever reason, be it the parents work 2 jobs, too busy watching dancing with the stars, or whatever their issues, maybe they don't have it to teach it. IT, is what I call CORE VALUES, in a nutshell;

Respect; respect for other peoples rights, property, and even their feelings.

Responsibility; you alone are responsible for your own actions, do not try to blame others for YOUR actions. I commonly call it- PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY.

Pride; pride in oneself, and, to me, work to make your parents proud of the person you are.

These are values that are severely lacking in a disappointingly large number of people in todays society, and IMO, without them you are definitly missing something.

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Old 02-23-2011, 07:16 AM   #93
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I was going to call you "panda" for short, but quickly realized how confusing that could have been But seriously, I agree with everything you said. I honestly have nothing to add. Excellent post IMO.

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Old 02-23-2011, 07:23 AM   #94
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Thanks there..................Other Panda???!!

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"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. Thomas Jefferson
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:21 PM   #95
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Never watched the movie and have no intention of doing so. i will make no comment on Moore. i was working south of Denver when the Columbine thing went down. One of the guys who worked for me had a police scanner. We listened to the police action from the minute that the school guard cop turned tail and ran away until the school was "secured".

Yep, Columbine was a disaster. But, as one poster put it; you have to suck it up and get on with life.

i will start another thread on a school disaster that 99 percent of Americans never heard of.

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Old 02-23-2011, 12:53 PM   #96
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The discussion of WW2 brings to mind an ominous comparison to Michael Moore's work. The Nazis produced all kinds of films and documentaries. These contained many facts, all skewed to fit their mission. The result was the holocaust which resulted in the murder of some 18 million by some counts including 6 million Jews. And resulted in WW2 and over 70 million dead.

When you have an individual with an ax to grind trying to write history, he can skew the facts to fit whatever mission he wants... no matter how misguided or evil that message may be.

In reality, there is no such thing as objectivity. No person can ever be an objective reporter. Therefore, you must always understand the messenger to understand his message.

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Old 02-25-2011, 11:23 PM   #97
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Sadpanda- once in a while, a thought struggles it's way to the surface- and if it does not die of loneliness, may remain for a brief time-

I THOUGHT I recalled something about the aftermath of Columbine, and went back and checked. Do not know if Mr. Moore addressed this or not.

Both shooters obtained firearms illegally. The shotguns were purchased as a straw-man buy by one of the shooters girlfriend. The pistol was illegally sold to them by a Colorado resident. HE spent less than 2 years in prison. SHE was never charged with any crime.

I mention this only in that when I hear someone with the same old tired chant of needing more gun control laws- this has been on the books as a Federal law for quite some time. But in cases like this one, not enforced.

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Old 02-26-2011, 01:02 AM   #98
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I had totally forgot about their acquisition of firearms! Straw purchases are really hard to enforce and convict on from a LE perspective. I believe in the movie he says they were "legally purchased from gun shows". This might have been the case, but then they were illegally transferred to the shooters. Why didn't the shooters buy the shotguns? I thought one of them was 18. The actual punishment for a straw purchase is one I am not familiar with, but I would imagine it isn't that severe. Did these people know they were supplying for a mass shooting? I HIGHLY doubt it. So then the question is... What was their liability to this incident?

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Old 02-26-2011, 01:39 AM   #99
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Don't know how you define severe. To me, 5 years in a Federal prison is pretty damned severe (strawman purchase penalty). They could not make a legal purchase since they had been convicted of a felony (theft) and were on probation for it.

As a side note, investigator from the county Sheriff's office had been on one of the shooter's blogs, where he had information on explosives that they had made, and plans to use them. He began drafting an affadavit for a search warrant, but never followed thru with it.

Liability is a matter of civil, not criminal law. The test is: Did you do, or fail to do- a thing that a reasonably careful person would do. Knowingly violating the law, and selling a handgun to a minor would be a LONG step towards meeting that burden of proof.

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Old 02-26-2011, 02:46 AM   #100
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Post #100 in the thread!!

I had no idea the penalty was that severe. I figured it was 1-2 years minimum security prison. I also didn't know about the previous felony charge(s), or that they were, in fact, being watched. I don't think a reasonably careful person would have sold them firearms. That comes down to personal opinion though.

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