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Old 07-18-2014, 09:29 AM   #111
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if anyone feels there s a better organization than the NRA to support our gun rights, and is better at defending the 2nd amendment, then by all means join them and give them your support. that is purely a personal choice. feel free to tell us how they are better in serving the fight to defend our gun rights.

personally, i am with Jim, that no large organization is perfect, including the NRA, but i still feel they have the best interests of gun owners in mind. other than the much smaller GOA, i don't see any other pro-gun right organizations with the number of members, the resources or the money in the fight to influence gun legislation. the NRA is large enough to actually have some sway over politicians simply because of the number of members it has, which are also those who will vote for politicians who support the 2nd amendment.

maybe i'm biased to a certain degree since i have been a member of the NRA for a number of years, as have my father and brother.

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Old 07-18-2014, 11:04 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Axxe55 View Post
if anyone feels there s a better organization than the NRA to support our gun rights, and is better at defending the 2nd amendment, then by all means join them and give them your support. that is purely a personal choice. feel free to tell us how they are better in serving the fight to defend our gun rights.

personally, i am with Jim, that no large organization is perfect, including the NRA, but i still feel they have the best interests of gun owners in mind. other than the much smaller GOA, i don't see any other pro-gun right organizations with the number of members, the resources or the money in the fight to influence gun legislation. the NRA is large enough to actually have some sway over politicians simply because of the number of members it has, which are also those who will vote for politicians who support the 2nd amendment.

maybe i'm biased to a certain degree since i have been a member of the NRA for a number of years, as have my father and brother.
Im sure the NRA has great intentions but all politics is local and they have been too close to too many outside of Hometown USA to vigorously defend us in our hometowns like we need.

Ive always had a hard time grouping, I rarely find myself in agreement with any single groups vision because Im just not John Q anything in life. Im going to try to enlist or local Legion to take up the fight or they can stop expecting my yearly dues. They have come out against the Safe Act in writing but its about time they start doing so publicly. Legions are Local, State and National all in one, they cross all boundaries of parties and celebrate that which few Americans can reasonably deny, our Constitutional Values and Love of our Nation.

In smalltown USA, The Legion is not so much for only Vets as it welcomes all to embrace our neighbors under a common flag and serve the community the same way its members served our nation. Theres no D's Or R's in the membership, just C's (Citizens).
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:15 AM   #113
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I'm joining the Legion Here Sarge. They are also part of OATH KEEPERS( at least here,...)



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Old 07-18-2014, 03:02 PM   #114
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Actually you are ALL wrong. This 'in fighting' will not help the cause one bit!!!
The NRA is a pro 2nd Amendment civil right organization as are ALL the others you mentioned. They all go about trying to defend the RTKABA's in different ways with different priorities. BUT THEY ARE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE. Stop acting like a bunch of spoiled brats and try to except the fact that not all of these groups will do everything just way you would, but at the very least 'tolerate' the differences and stop bad mouthing any of them. In other words "If you don't have something good to say, say nothing at all"!
But wait - This is the Big List of Who Hates Guns. What are we supposed to say "good" about such people and organizations in this thread?

As far as I'm concerned, there are no sacred cows in "the" cause, but then there is no "the" cause to begin with as your reply proves. Your reply seeks to protect the NRA from criticism, whether or not the criticism is legitimate, true and accurately told. My criticisms of the NRA seek to identify people who have been egregiously harmful to gun rights, and the NRA is the #1 .org on my list whether anyone claiming loyalty to "the" cause is willing to hear or consider my evidence or not. We obviously don't share "the" same cause if one of us protects sacred cows, and the other seeks only to expose the mountains of ugly truth the NRA has hidden from its members in plain sight.

I've already quoted a former VP's own words from the NRA's own official publication, American Rifleman, from 1968 asserting proudly and unequivocally that the NRA has been for "...workable and enforceable gun control legislation since it's very inception in 1871,". In that same issue came another proud pronouncement of a past NRA President actually helping to write a major piece of gun control legislation when they quoted this:

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"Item: The late Karl T. Frederick, an NRA president, served for years as special consultant with the Commissioners on Uniform State Laws to frame the Uniform Firearms Act of 1930. ... Salient provisions of the Act require a license to carry a pistol concealed on one’s person or in a vehicle; require the purchaser of a pistol to give information about himself which is submitted by the seller to the local police authorities; specify a 48-hour time lapse between application for purchase and delivery."
By the NRA's own admission within their own official publication, we have the NRA to thank for having to ask our government(s) for permission to carry concealed, for having to give personal information to sellers before we can be allowed to exercise our right to keep and bear, and for the first waiting period in the nation between application to exercise a God-given right, and "delivery" of the only means with which one even can exercise that right!

What do you have to say that's "nice" about that admission by a past President of the NRA, JimRau? Is having to ask permission and pay for the "privilege" to exercise our God-given rights something we should remain quiet about because a sacred cow participated in creating those unconstitutional provisions? Is that "the" cause to which you refer? Being stifled from telling the truth because your ox is being gored is not part of any cause I associate myself with.

But we don't need to go back as far as '68 to find NRA betrayals. Let's just look at 2007 as the Heller case was working its way to the Supreme Court. NRA actively fought against it, while at the same time doing fund-raising based on the case that they knew they couldn't quash. From a post I made on the subject more than four years ago:

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Even the American Bar Association Journal ran a story in '07 - pre-Heller - with a headline that if Heller won, it would be in spite of the NRA, not thanks to them. In citing a fund-raising letter that LaPierre (et al) sent out, the ABA Journal said...

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If the tone of LaPierre’s letter didn’t sound urgent enough, he used plenty of underlined boldface type and capital letters to drive home his point. He told the faithful a top-notch brief may cost as much as $1.2 million.

“For gun owners and NRA members, this is the biggest legal battle that we have ever fought, or will ever fight—and its outcome will probably impact every law-abiding American gun owner,” LaPierre wrote in the five-page letter. “It is a battle we simply cannot afford to lose.”
Sounds reasonable for an org. involved in the biggest 2A case in history, right? One problem though; they weren't involved! Continuing from the article, and remember, this is '07, contemporaneous to the events being reported:

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Here’s where LaPierre heads into a wrong turn: It’s not an NRA case. In fact, the gun rights supporters who filed it complain that lawyers working for the NRA, concerned the case could backfire, spent considerable time and money trying to scuttle it. The association finally was dragged kicking and screaming before the Supreme Court after the prospect of review appeared more likely than it has in years.
It goes on to describe some road-blocking maneuvers that NRA engaged in, mostly aimed at trying to make themselves the lead team at SCOTUS, but they ended up involved at all exactly as described above; kicking and screaming, because their industry depends on draconian gun control laws for them to inspire the millions they bring in in fund-raising.

Where Heller is concerned, a case can be made that we'd be a little better-off had the NRA not been there. They and Bush's Solicitor General, Clements, took a weaker position on the individual right question than did Gura and his team. Perhaps without that weaker compromise position, SCOTUS wouldn't have ruled as narrowly as they did. They probably would have, but who knows? But the fact remains, we'd have never got where we got with Heller at all if we had depended solely on the NRA, because the case would've never seen the light of day.
The DNA of the freest society man ever bequeathed to his fellow man can be found in the words, "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The history of weak-kneed compromise, and of converting rights to privileges, and the DNA of betrayal can be found in the acronym "NRA."

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Old 07-18-2014, 05:56 PM   #115
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I am a member of the NRA for the second time. I was a member in the mid 1990's, but was concerned about the constant demands for money. I gave a whole week's pay one day, only to get a letter by return mail that started, "Do I still speak for you???" It went on with a scathing accusation that I was a cheapskate for not giving more. So I let my membership drop. I joined again last year, and once again, as many as three demands for money per week, accompanied by letters insinuating that if I didn't fork it over, I would personally be responsible for everyone losing their civil rights. I stopped forking it over because I can't afford it.
Also, I have long suspected collusion between congressmen and the NRA guru's, where they put together a bill that is scary to gun owners, then demand money from the members to stop the bill.
I haven't cancelled my membership yet, but I'm considering letting it drop when it comes up for renewal.

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Old 07-18-2014, 07:18 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by CzarChasm View Post
But wait - This is the Big List of Who Hates Guns. What are we supposed to say "good" about such people and organizations in this thread?

As far as I'm concerned, there are no sacred cows in "the" cause, but then there is no "the" cause to begin with as your reply proves. Your reply seeks to protect the NRA from criticism, whether or not the criticism is legitimate, true and accurately told. My criticisms of the NRA seek to identify people who have been egregiously harmful to gun rights, and the NRA is the #1 .org on my list whether anyone claiming loyalty to "the" cause is willing to hear or consider my evidence or not. We obviously don't share "the" same cause if one of us protects sacred cows, and the other seeks only to expose the mountains of ugly truth the NRA has hidden from its members in plain sight.

I've already quoted a former VP's own words from the NRA's own official publication, American Rifleman, from 1968 asserting proudly and unequivocally that the NRA has been for "...workable and enforceable gun control legislation since it's very inception in 1871,". In that same issue came another proud pronouncement of a past NRA President actually helping to write a major piece of gun control legislation when they quoted this:



By the NRA's own admission within their own official publication, we have the NRA to thank for having to ask our government(s) for permission to carry concealed, for having to give personal information to sellers before we can be allowed to exercise our right to keep and bear, and for the first waiting period in the nation between application to exercise a God-given right, and "delivery" of the only means with which one even can exercise that right!

What do you have to say that's "nice" about that admission by a past President of the NRA, JimRau? Is having to ask permission and pay for the "privilege" to exercise our God-given rights something we should remain quiet about because a sacred cow participated in creating those unconstitutional provisions? Is that "the" cause to which you refer? Being stifled from telling the truth because your ox is being gored is not part of any cause I associate myself with.

But we don't need to go back as far as '68 to find NRA betrayals. Let's just look at 2007 as the Heller case was working its way to the Supreme Court. NRA actively fought against it, while at the same time doing fund-raising based on the case that they knew they couldn't quash. From a post I made on the subject more than four years ago:



The DNA of the freest society man ever bequeathed to his fellow man can be found in the words, "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The history of weak-kneed compromise, and of converting rights to privileges, and the DNA of betrayal can be found in the acronym "NRA."

CzarChasm
Try and think about what I said before you make such a silly remark.
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Old 07-18-2014, 08:55 PM   #117
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So, that list tells me that there are a heck of a lot of people who don't like guns out there. I knew that. What other conclusions am I supposed to draw? Since I assume some of those folks actually vote, maybe we should be trying to win them over with our adult approach to gun issues rather than to do anything in our power to demean, diminish and insult them. Surely telling them what kind of idiot, un-American bastages they are doesn't do much help our cause. Just as gangs of nuts carrying high-capacity, removable magazine, semi-auto rifles into arget to buy cookies makes us no new friends.

If enough people in this country get fed up with guns, gun violence and gun people, it won't make a damn what the Constitution says. (or doesn't say, as the case may be) The Constitution is a two hundred year old paper document, it is not cast in stone, is not infallible, and is not unchangeable. If we aren't smart, we will lose what is so dear; if you don't believe it, look at the rest of the world.

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Old 07-18-2014, 09:16 PM   #118
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So, that list tells me that there are a heck of a lot of people who don't like guns out there. I knew that. What other conclusions am I supposed to draw? Since I assume some of those folks actually vote, maybe we should be trying to win them over with our adult approach to gun issues rather than to do anything in our power to demean, diminish and insult them. Surely telling them what kind of idiot, un-American bastages they are doesn't do much help our cause. Just as gangs of nuts carrying high-capacity, removable magazine, semi-auto rifles into arget to buy cookies makes us no new friends.

If enough people in this country get fed up with guns, gun violence and gun people, it won't make a damn what the Constitution says. (or doesn't say, as the case may be) The Constitution is a two hundred year old paper document, it is not cast in stone, is not infallible, and is not unchangeable. If we aren't smart, we will lose what is so dear; if you don't believe it, look at the rest of the world.
if these people were simply fence sitters who weren't commited to one side or the other, pretty much undecided, your theory might be valid. but when someone is pretty much of the mind that guns are evil and takes a liberal anti-gun approach, your ideas go out the window rather quickly and would have no chance of changing their minds or their viewpoints.

these are the same types of people who only think guns are evil and that getting rid of guns will rid our world of crime and criminals. they refuse to believe that men were committing violence upon others long before guns were ever invented, and must assume that criminal acts only started when they were invented.
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Old 07-18-2014, 09:16 PM   #119
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The NRA is trying to hold the status quo, and not let any more gun snatcher laws come , I agree that's a good shield , but we also need to have some measure of offense to let's make the gun control crowds nightmares of full autos in wallmart happen and shred ever gun control law since the 30s

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Old 07-19-2014, 02:58 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by JimRau View Post
Try and think about what I said before you make such a silly remark.
I absolutely did think about it and answered all of it directly.

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Actually you are ALL wrong. This 'in fighting' will not help the cause one bit!!!
I am not wrong, and we obviously see "the" cause differently, meaning there is no "the" cause that includes identifying betrayers of "the" cause if they're considered by many as sacred cows.

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The NRA is a pro 2nd Amendment civil right organization as are ALL the others you mentioned.
I have been thinking about this for the last 18 to 20 years, and the only conclusion that anyone willing to seek, learn and accept the truth about the NRA can make is that they are pro-gun-control, pro-permission-slips, pro-paying to exercise our God-given rights, pro-waiting periods, pro-universal background checks (including private transfers even between family members), pro-NFA34, GCA68, FOPA, Brady and on and on and on.

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They all go about trying to defend the RTKABA's in different ways with different priorities. BUT THEY ARE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE.
JPFO is decidedly not on the "same side" as the NRA. They are the #1 source of truthful information about the NRA's long list of betrayals, but not the only source by a long-shot.

I agree that GOA basically does things differently and that they are on gun owners' side, even though I don't agree with everything they support or oppose. The difference is that, as far as I know, they have never signed off as a lobby group on bonafide gun control legislation. NRA has many times, and by their own words, have likewise admitted it many times.

There is nothing "silly" about what I said in reply to your previous post, Jim. I answered it directly, respectfully, and above all, truthfully. If the truth hurts, perhaps you should turn your ire towards the NRA rather than the person trying to impart truth to you about them.

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