A belief in gun control
You are Unregistered, please register to use all of the features of FirearmsTalk.com!    
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Legal and Activism > A belief in gun control

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-14-2014, 08:57 PM   #1
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 848
Liked 520 Times on 279 Posts
Likes Given: 114

Default A belief in gun control

In the past I was a big supporter of gun control. The problem with that was two-fold.

1. I'm a big believer in the right to self defense. You can talk about the 2nd Amendment all you want, but even without the Constitution and the Bill of Rights I still believe it is a fundamental right to be able to defend yourself and your property. The only people who do not have a right to self defense are property and I'm pretty sure slavery was outlawed in this country.

2. Over the years every piece of gun control that I thought was a good idea has been debunked. I won't go into detail here but what I believed did not align with the facts. I am a rational person but sometimes I hold strong opinions without all the facts. That just makes me human. As I uncover facts I find that my reasons for holding an opinion are no longer valid, so I re-evaluate and possibly change my opinion. I am now to the point that I can't think of any existing gun control laws that accomplish anything constructive or worthwhile.

I do believe that no right is absolute. We have laws on the books around free speech, voting, searches, etc. Some of those laws are untenable but some of them are important to a functioning society.

Here is my challenge to anyone proposing any new gun control.

Show me how it makes us better. Quantify it. How does it make us safer and/or reduce violence? I don't want to hear about how it makes you feel, I don't want abstractions, I don't want anything that starts with "I think that...".

Argue with facts, real facts and not made up or disproven numbers. Reality or it doesn't matter. If you can't argue with real numbers, real data, and without misrepresentation then your cause is not noble. If you have to lie, use emotional appeals, or resort to name-calling then you do not have the moral high ground.

I am willing to give up part of my individuality for the greater good. I am not a selfish person. Well, I AM selfish but not so self-absorbed that I will put my own well being before the good of society.

I am not comfortable with just anyone owning or carrying a gun. That's alright, the Bill of Rights doesn't say I have a right to be comfortable. The facts show that more guns equal less crime. If there are facts from current studies that counter this I'd like to see them. I will go with the facts even though they run counter to how I feel.

I know some will flame me for ever having a pro-gun control stance and I know some will argue that under no circumstances should we have gun control. We don't live in a world of absolutes. I think the gun control agenda as it exists today has no basis in crime control. I believe it is about control but not in a way this country was founded on. I am not interested in telling people how they should defend themselves, I just believe they have the right and should be able to procure the means.

Here's the point. I am willing to have a conversation on gun control with those that want it. Bring me the facts. If you can't do that, your cause is not just. It is that simple. If this were anything else, the right to free speech, the right to worship, your property, and someone was trying to take it away and they did so by providing lies and false information you would feel deceived. You would think the other party is in the wrong. If the gun control crowd wants us to listen, then quit trying to deceive us. The real reason why Everytown for Gun Safety and their ilk are run by upfront public relations professionals is that they have to spin the story. The next time someone who is a gun grabber wants to have a "conversation" with you, insist on them providing facts. Don't let them argue with emotion and if they use an outdated and debunked study, call them on it. Force them to argue with reason. Not so that they will change your mind but because it might actually change theirs if they bother to find out the real story.
__________________
"For every problem there is always a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong." - Mark Twain
CrazedJava is offline  
10
People Like This 
Reply With Quote

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today - It's Free!

Are you a firearms enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Firearms Talk is owned and operated by fellow firearms enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information.

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today! - Click Here


Old 08-14-2014, 09:01 PM   #2
That looks like it hurt
FTF_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JCS53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,671
Liked 1191 Times on 744 Posts
Likes Given: 880

Default

All I can say is if you want BS talk to a Legislator or a dedicated Liberal. If you want the real world talk to Gun owners from either side that do not have anything invested in having gun control... or not having Gun control.
JCS53 is offline  
kfox75 Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 09:02 PM   #3
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
manta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: UK.
Posts: 2,016
Liked 794 Times on 505 Posts
Likes Given: 239

Default

Quote:
Here's the point. I am willing to have a conversation on gun control with those that want it. Bring me the facts. If you can't do that, your cause is not just. It is that simple.
What are the facts. ?
manta is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 09:10 PM   #4
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 848
Liked 520 Times on 279 Posts
Likes Given: 114

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manta View Post
What are the facts. ?
Let's use an example.

Magazine capacity limits.

How does a magazine capacity limit make us safer?

A popular argument is that mass shooters would need to reload more often. Well, first of all, mass shooters are the exception and not the rule. More people will die in Chicago this weekend than in any mass shooting and mass shootings are not as common as the sensationalist media makes them out to be.

Second, there have been mass shootings where the shooter had limited capacity magazines. That didn't stop them. Typically, mass shooters carry more than one weapon. Also, since they tend towards Gun Free Zones, reloading is not an issue. The idea you can "rush the shooter" is right out of Hollywood, not reality.

Ok, so what about everyday criminals? Well, that doesn't really matter. Crimes are usually committed as one-to-one or many-to-one where the numbers favor the criminals. A criminal with a single-shot weapon against an unarmed victim has all the ammunition he needs.

However, restricting magazine capacity does make citizens less safe. Again, this is not Hollywood. A 6 shot revolver does not mean I can take on 6 bad guys. I *MIGHT*, if I'm lucky, have enough shots to stop 2 attackers. Or, I might not even have enough to stop a single attacker without needing to reload. In that situation, the need to stop and reload may be deadly.

A single armed aggressor against multiple unarmed defenders has an advantage and the luxury of reloading.

A single armed defender does not have the luxury of reloading regardless of how their multiple assailants are armed.

In other words, I cannot find anything quantifiable that would indicate magazine capacity limits would make anyone safer except criminals.

Unless someone has facts that prove otherwise. Though considering the community I don't think anyone here will try to debunk me.

(Sidenote: Capacity limits are a gun control item I NEVER supported)
__________________
"For every problem there is always a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong." - Mark Twain
CrazedJava is offline  
8
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 09:11 PM   #5
The Apocalypse Is Coming.....
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 0
Liked 22306 Times on 12476 Posts
Likes Given: 53672

Default

most gun controls laws are written to restrict a certain group of people from possessing firearms.

in current times they use the notion that these gun control laws, restrictions or bans are in the interests of the public to deter criminal acts or to keep guns out of the hands of violent or deranged individuals. history has proven that to be false and misleading.

not one gun control law ever passed has prevented or deterred criminal activity nor prevented criminals from obtaining a gun to be used in criminal act.

gun control laws are about controlling groups of people from having guns. currently that group tends to be any LAC that wants to own a gun as the group they wish to control.

our own government fears it's citizens because we are armed. look back in history and look at any country that enacted gun control laws, then registration and then confiscation and tell me they are citizens who enjoy the same freedoms as we do here, because we are armed.

talking softly and carrying a big stick, go further than just talking softly.
Axxe55 is offline  
9
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 09:15 PM   #6
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
rn-cindy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Working off the rent...on RGs farm S/W OhiO
Posts: 2,705
Liked 3253 Times on 1670 Posts
Likes Given: 4906

Default

Thank you for taking the time to write that very thoughtful post...Gun Control is a diversion.....It's already illegal to shoot / kill people. With any kind of gun..with any magazine capacity..Making all those type laws redundant.......You will get no flame from me..... Welcome to the other side.....
__________________
Don't follow me.....You won't make it.....
rn-cindy is offline  
12
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 09:16 PM   #7
Lifetime Supporting Member
FTF_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
AmPaTerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: West-Central Tennessee
Posts: 1,183
Liked 1337 Times on 654 Posts
Likes Given: 826

Default

I am a firm believer in gun control.
A good two handed grip will get it every time - -
__________________
Terry

Jesus Christ told me to be armed.
The government wants me disarmed.
Guess which one I will obey?
AmPaTerry is offline  
14
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 09:17 PM   #8
McCool@email.com
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
MisterMcCool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumfugg, Egypt
Posts: 10,058
Liked 9012 Times on 4863 Posts
Likes Given: 19050

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazedJava View Post
In the past I was a big supporter of gun control.
Glad you came around.
__________________
No offense and none taken (̿▀̿ ̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿)̄
MisterMcCool is offline  
7
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 09:17 PM   #9
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 848
Liked 520 Times on 279 Posts
Likes Given: 114

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axxe55 View Post
not one gun control law ever passed has prevented or deterred criminal activity nor prevented criminals from obtaining a gun to be used in criminal act.
Not to cherry-pick but the last domino to fall for me was background checks.

I believed background checks were at least a deterrent and made it more difficult for criminals to obtain weapons.

Then the Washington Naval Yard shooting happened.

The shooter had a history of violence but not convictions. His history still should have been known to investigators but they gave him a SECRET clearance anyway.

Keeping in mind, a SECRET clearance is a more rigorous check into your history than most members here will ever go through.

Well, after that I started paying attention and found out about conviction rates for people who were caught in a background check, and even the numbers of people who failed the check versus the numbers performed.

A huge expensive system that catches a tiny fraction and punishes an even tinier fraction. A multi-million dollar boondoggle that accomplishes nothing.

Background checks don't make us safer? They obviously don't stop criminals from getting guns. If you can get SECRET clearance you'll easily pass a normal background check for a firearm, but it won't stop you from shooting up a Federal facility.

So now I don't even believe background checks are worthwhile.
__________________
"For every problem there is always a solution that is simple, obvious, and wrong." - Mark Twain
CrazedJava is offline  
8
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2014, 09:18 PM   #10
The Apocalypse Is Coming.....
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 0
Liked 22306 Times on 12476 Posts
Likes Given: 53672

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmPaTerry View Post
I am a firm believer in gun control.
A good two handed grip will get it every time - -
gun control is the ability to hit your intended target!
Axxe55 is offline  
7
People Like This 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Cleaver attack? Can you say "gun control fail & immigration control fail"? orangello Politics, Religion and Controversy 1 05-22-2013 08:51 PM
Control Ammo to Control Guns danf_fl Conspiracy 9 01-01-2013 12:17 PM
Gun Control: A Step Towards Total Control PanBaccha Politics, Religion and Controversy 6 08-13-2012 07:15 AM
This Has Gotten Out Of Control. gorknoids The Club House 9 04-09-2010 07:59 PM
Obama on Gun Control, McCain on Gun Control tracker Legal and Activism 8 06-23-2008 01:00 AM



Newest Threads