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Old 04-04-2012, 01:32 AM   #1
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Default BATFE Violates The Law Again

Pulled this from ammoland.

http://www.ammoland.com/2012/04/03/batfe-violates-the-law-again/#axzz1r1yYPTUt

Anchorage, AK --(Ammoland.com)- BATFE is violating the law again.

Anchorage gun shops are being visited by BATFE agents that are requesting the shops 4473 forms as far back as 2007.

They claim they want to make copies of the “book”. This is defacto registration, against the law, and BATFE knows it.

Please inform everyone you know about this and notify any gun dealers you know that they don’t have to comply. Contact your congressman and senators and demand a full investigation.

Don Young and our Senators have been informed about what is happening. Congressman Young is acutely interested but our senators seem to be indifferent.

You can go to their websites to find their email forms. A contact at Congressman Young’s office is Eric Elam eric.elam@mail.house.gov

Don Young
View Website
Office of Congressman Don Young
2314 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Tel: (202)225-5765
Fax: (202)225-0425

Mark Begich
View Website
111 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
Tel: (202) 224-3004
Fax: (202) 224-2354
Toll-free line: 1(877)501-6275*
*Only toll-free for callers with an Alaska (907) area code.

Lisa Murkowski
View Website
709 Hart Senate Building
Washington, DC 20510
Tel: (202)224-6665
Fax: (202)224-5301

This information was provided by the Alaska Libertarians.

About:
The mission of The Anchorage Second Amendment Task Force is to provide Alaskans with the knowledge of the meaning and true purpose of the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution, with which they may conduct themselves as responsible citizens of our republic. Visit: www.anchorage2atf.com

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Old 04-04-2012, 01:39 AM   #2
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"ObamaLand" - and its lawlessness, strikes again ! I'm sure there's a lot of "closet muslims" lurking in AK ! >MW

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Old 04-04-2012, 01:46 AM   #3
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Unbelievable. This is how it starts.

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Old 04-04-2012, 05:42 AM   #4
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People can bitch and moan all they want.It won't do any good the way I see it.
As long as the asshat's in DC are allowed to keep breathing air,we are going to continue getting screwed by them.

The plug needs to get pulled on the Big Government Machine,and never plugged back in.What is it going to take for each of the states to stand up to the fed's,and tell them to "F" off.

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Old 04-04-2012, 09:35 AM   #5
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Aren't 4473 forms supposed to be kept by the FFL and provided when a subpoena is issued for info on a specific firearm? Is there a law barring the ATF from asking for copies of all 4473 forms? There may be...I'm just not up on this like I should be.

What the ATF is doing is really not like registration. If you can make face-to-face sales of firearms, a 4473 record really doesn't prove or disprove what you own or whether you own any firearms. But what this does do is provide a data point to establish likely firearm owners. Combine that with membership lists at gun clubs, who applied for hunting permits, etc. and you can build a pretty good picture of who probably does and does not own firearms.

Has the ATF offered any explanation why they want this information?

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Old 04-04-2012, 01:43 PM   #6
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I believe they have unfettered access to the 4473's but cannot remove them or make copies. They can take notes. Copies shoud require a subpoena. In Texas last year they visited shops and made note of AR/AK purchases. ATF agents visited the purchasers and requested to see the rifle purchased. At least one Houston area cop got caught making straw purchases. Two rifles he purchased ended up travelling South w/o him.

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Old 04-04-2012, 02:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
I believe they have unfettered access to the 4473's but cannot remove them or make copies. They can take notes. Copies shoud require a subpoena.
I recently had this discussion with my buddy/Gunshop owner/FFL, actually
they can take them without a subpeona, however, they are only allowed to
take them 1) in the course of a criminal investitation and only 4473 specific
to that investation and 2) they must leave a reciept for that 4473.

Example:
So if John Doe is a suspected straw purchaser for local criminals, the ATF
can request the 4473's for all guns that John Doe purchased. The FFL has
to provide them. When the investigation is over the ATF is required to
return them. However, most investigations are Gun X is recovered as a
weapon used in a crime. The Serial number is traced from the Mfr. to the
wholesaler, to the gunshop to the owner(s) and hopefully to the criminal.
Any 4473 that are removed from the shop, the ATF agent is required to
leave a signed receipt for those records. More than one my buddy had
4473's taken by one agent only to have another stop in a week or two
later asking for the same one (a particular gun by s/n) Dick showed the
receipt and all was good. Several Agents commented that it was good
he had the receipt.

Also:
If a gun shop closes down all the 4473 are to be turned over to the ATF.
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:41 AM   #8
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Per Shade; ".....If a gun shop closes down all the 4473 are to be turned over to the ATF."....

Kinda seems like the "BATFEs" have a vested interest in closing down gun shops, doesn't it ? >MW

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Old 04-05-2012, 11:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkt View Post
But what this does do is provide a data point to establish likely firearm owners. Combine that with membership lists at gun clubs, who applied for hunting permits, etc. and you can build a pretty good picture of who probably does and does not own firearms.
Getting those 4473's will certainly provide leads to the one time or occasional buyer/shooter enthusiast. But for most of us here, my Form 4's, NRA Patron and TSRA Life Member status, and most likely my firearms website memberships, give me away in spades. I never was very good at hiding.
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:43 PM   #10
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Someone is under investigation for straw purchasing in the area. Assuming that is true, the ATF is in the right to find out what this guy is doing. Who here doesn't want people that give guns a bad name to get caught instead of more restrictions for all of us?

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