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-   -   Bass Pro Shops: Gone too far? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f97/bass-pro-shops-gone-too-far-59958/)

PrimePorkchop 03-11-2012 05:25 AM

VICTORY IS OURS

Larry Whitely just contacted me to let me know that the policy in question has been reversed after they realized they had misinterpreted the law.

All customers who fall within the 16 exceptions outlined in section 2 of the FOID Act are now allowed, once again, to purchase ammunition at Bass Pro Shops' Illinois Locations.

I think it's freaking awesome that Firearms Talk Forums is single handedly responsible for this change. Bass Pro Shops should send in a hefty contribution to the site with some handy little gift cards for all of you who fought for the rights of someone you've never even met (Though...not holding my breath)

Thanks to everyone who stood up for Jim (Atari101) and countless others by sending emails, making phone calls, signing the petition, and spreading the word.

A bunch of damn patriots reside here. So glad I became a member

THREAD UPDATE: 3/12/2012

We have heard back from Mr. Whiteley, the communications manager with Bass Pro Shops based in Chicago, IL. According to Mr. Whiteley, BPS has their lawyers looking into the actual Illinois State Law that we (members of FTF) have brought to their attention. He informs me that he also has the assistance of Wal-Mart and Cabelas lawyers as well, and that there is a collaborative effort to resolve this matter and erect a new policy that sides with their customers, instead of fear-mongering Chicago politicians. I will update as I hear more.


The email from Mr. Whiteley:
Quote:

We do have a legal team working on it and will get back with you as soon as we hear what is determined. I got them what you sent me.

Of course as we have said all along we want to be able to sell this ammunition and hope to get this straightened out real soon.

This gray area is so confusing there were several Illinois gun businesses that were not selling to out of state customers, Cabela’s main offices said their stores were not supposed to be selling and they are checking into it, Wal-Mart stores were but their home office is checking with their lawyers to make sure they weren’t in the wrong.

Between our legal team, Wal-Mart’s legal team, and Cabela’s legal team hopefully we can go back to selling it again.







Larry L. Whiteley
Bass Pro Shops/Tracker Marine
Manager of Communications
lwhiteley@basspro.com
417-873-5022












If you have not been made aware of a certain policy that exists in the Illinois based Bass Pro Shops, then please allow me to bring you up to speed. Bass Pro Shop locations in the State of Illinois have enacted a policy that says they will not sell handgun ammunition to non-residents. So in other words, if you live on the border, lets say in Wisconsin, and travel to your local Bass Pro Shop in Gurnee, IL, from here on out, they will refuse to sell you any ammunition that can be used in a handgun.

That's their right, correct? Yes. It is. And they should have that right.

And we have the right to voice our opinions on it!

Bass Pro Shops is, without argument, one of the top 3 outdoor providers in the world. From Fishermen and Hunters, to hikers, campers, and marksmen, just to name a few, their business thrives on people like us.

So why would they choose to erect a policy that makes them sell less ammunition? Well, if you ask them, they'll tell you that it's Illinois State Law, as has been stated by two higher ranking people from Bass Pro Shops:

Quote:

In response, I want to assure you that in no way is our policy regarding the non-sale of handgun ammunition to Wisconsin residents the result of the right to carry laws of Wisconsin. As mandated by the State of Illinois, the sale of handgun ammunition (even if for use in long guns chambered for handgun calibers) is restricted to Residents of the State of Illinois, 21 years of age or older, with a valid FOID card. Thus, our policy with regards to sale of handgun ammunition to non-residents is only in compliance with this directive.

Mike Lauer
GSM-Hunting/Camo
Bass Pro Shops #003
Chicago, IL.
(847) 856-1229
malauer@basspro.com

and

Quote:

Thank you for your e-mail and I thank you for standing up for our 2nd amendment rights as we have always done and will continue to do.
In regards to gun policies at our stores, our company policy is to follow the gun laws in the state in which that store is in as they vary across the country.
Below is what we have been told by the Illinois State Police –

Residents of bordering states can purchase long guns and ammo.
Inter-changeable ammo such as 9MM for long guns and hand guns is okay, if
the customer is purchasing at same time as firearm purchase. Nothing in
writing stating that, use your best judgment. Better not to sell 9MM,
7.62MM to non-residents, impossible to determine their use. Same applies
to those not from bordering states, if they purchase a non-resident hunting
license first for long guns or ammo. No hand gun ammo in Illinois for
non-residents. Be all that you can be!


Larry L. Whiteley
Bass Pro Shops/Tracker Marine
Manager of Communications
lwhiteley@basspro.com
417-873-5022

So what we can take from Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Lauer is that Bass Pro Shops in Illinois take their legal advice from the Illinois State Police. Not their corporate lawyers. They have chosen to listen to the ISP, and make a new policy, believing it to be because Illinois State Law says they must, even when the officers email specifically states

Quote:

nothing in writing states that, use your best judgement Better not sell 9mm to non-residents, impossible to determine their use.
This is wrong on many levels, most notably, it's completely and unequivocally false. But it's also assuming that anyone who does not live in the State of Illinois will use handgun ammunition to commit a crime. In other words: Guity until Proven Innocent, which is, last I checked, not in compliance with any judicial system in this country.

So, many of us here (too many to name names) have reached out to Bass Pro in an effort to educate them that this IS NOT a law in Illinois, and that Illinois Law actually states quite the opposite. We have sent them many emails and complaints, and tried to show them the error of their ways, in hopes they'd do the responsible thing and side with all of us - their meal ticket.

But it is starting to seem our efforts are not quite big enough yet, so thats why i'm asking YOU to join us. It's very easy to do, and requires minimimal effort, but your involvement will mean everything to this cause. And this cause is what i'd like to talk about next:






What is the cause?
The cause is quite simple. Let Bass Pro Shops know that, as long as policies exist that seek to rob law-abiding citizens of their 2nd amendment right, we will no longer shop in their stores, or online. The policy that Bass Pro Shops have enacted is one they claim is out of their hands, and forced upon them by Illinois State Law, but as you'll see a little later, it's not. Regardless of the reasons why, the facts are that Bass Pro Shops has, thus far, refused to review the facts and make changes as necessary. We view this as an insult and a slap to the face, and we view it as a form of gun control that is simply NOT needed!

How does this affect me?
Well, for now, unless you live in a state other than Illinois, and seek to purchase your ammo here, it doesn't really affect you at all. It's more of a "start". They (gun-control enthusiasts) will take any victory they can. Each victory adds upon the one before it, and before long, they'll be coming after you. Take a stand now and send a message, no matter how unimportant or hyperbolic it may sound to you - send a message that says you won't support a company that supports needless gun control.

What can I do?
Quite a bit actually. But before anything, I beg you to look into the facts themselves and decide for yourself. Do not take my word for it. Do not take our word for it. Once you have made your decision, and if it's to join the fight, then your level of participation is completely up to you! Send an email, make a phone call, sign a petition, or all 3, it's up to you. Regardless of which one, or if all three, we'd love to have your support!

What are "The Facts"?
I'm glad you asked! Let's look at Illinois law, as it's written. If you'll reference the Illinois State Police email, that is quoted in the beginning of this thread, you'll see that they cite Illinois Law as it pertains to FOID (If you're unaware, FOID is Firearm Owners Identification, it's a card we Illinoisians are required to carry to legally possess any firearm or ammunition)

It is Bass Pro Shops assertion that any non-resident who does not possess a FOID card, is not legally allowed to purchase handgun ammunition in the State of Illinois. They're wrong. Here's why:





You can view the law, in its entirety by clicking HERE
You can also view what the Illinois State Police officially have to say on the subject by reading here and here





PUBLIC SAFETY
(430 ILCS 65/) Firearm Owners Identification Card Act.


(430 ILCS 65/2) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-2)

Sec. 2. Firearm Owner's Identification Card required; exceptions
(a) (1) No person may acquire or possess any firearm, stun gun, or taser within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.
(2) No person may acquire or possess firearm ammunition within this State without having in his or her possession a Firearm Owner's Identification Card previously issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act.
(b) The provisions of this Section regarding the possession of firearms, firearm ammunition, stun guns, and tasers do not apply to:
(1) United States Marshals, while engaged in the operation of their official duties;

(2) Members of the Armed Forces of the United States or the National Guard, while engaged in the operation of their official duties;

(3) Federal officials required to carry firearms, while engaged in the operation of their official duties;

(4) Members of bona fide veterans organizations which receive firearms directly from the armed forces of the United States, while using the firearms for ceremonial purposes with blank ammunition;

(5) Nonresident hunters during hunting season, with valid nonresident hunting licenses and while in an area where hunting is permitted; however, at all other times and in all other places these persons must have their firearms unloaded and enclosed in a case;

(6) Those hunters exempt from obtaining a hunting license who are required to submit their Firearm Owner's Identification Card when hunting on Department of Natural Resources owned or managed sites;

(7) Nonresidents while on a firing or shooting range recognized by the Department of State Police; however, these persons must at all other times and in all other places have their firearms unloaded and enclosed in a case;

(8) Nonresidents while at a firearm showing or display recognized by the Department of State Police; however, at all other times and in all other places these persons must have their firearms unloaded and enclosed in a case;

(9) Nonresidents whose firearms are unloaded and enclosed in a case;

(10) Nonresidents who are currently licensed or registered to possess a firearm in their resident state;


(11) Unemancipated minors while in the custody and immediate control of their parent or legal guardian or other person in loco parentis to the minor if the parent or legal guardian or other person in loco parentis to the minor has a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card;

(12) Color guards of bona fide veterans organizations or members of bona fide American Legion bands while using firearms for ceremonial purposes with blank ammunition;

(13) Nonresident hunters whose state of residence does not require them to be licensed or registered to possess a firearm and only during hunting season, with valid hunting licenses, while accompanied by, and using a firearm owned by, a person who possesses a valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card and while in an area within a commercial club licensed under the Wildlife Code where hunting is permitted and controlled, but in no instance upon sites owned or managed by the Department of Natural Resources;

(14) Resident hunters who are properly authorized to hunt and, while accompanied by a person who possesses a valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card, hunt in an area within a commercial club licensed under the Wildlife Code where hunting is permitted and controlled;

(15) A person who is otherwise eligible to obtain a Firearm Owner's Identification Card under this Act and is under the direct supervision of a holder of a Firearm Owner's Identification Card who is 21 years of age or older while the person is on a firing or shooting range or is a participant in a firearms safety and training course recognized by a law enforcement agency or a national, statewide shooting sports organization; and

(16) Competitive shooting athletes whose competition firearms are sanctioned by the International Olympic Committee, the International Paralympic Committee, the International Shooting Sport Federation, or USA Shooting in connection with such athletes' training for and participation in shooting competitions at the 2016 Olympic and Paralympic Games and sanctioned test events leading up to the 2016 Olympic and Paralympic Games.
(c) The provisions of this Section regarding the acquisition and possession of firearms, firearm ammunition, stun guns, and tasers do not apply to law enforcement officials of this or any other jurisdiction, while engaged in the operation of their official duties.
(Source: P.A. 96-7, eff. 4-3-09.)

(430 ILCS 65/3) (from Ch. 38, par. 83-3)

Sec. 3. (a) Except as provided in Section 3a, no person may knowingly transfer, or cause to be transferred, any firearm, firearm ammunition, stun gun, or taser to any person within this State unless the transferee with whom he deals displays a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card which has previously been issued in his name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act. In addition, all firearm, stun gun, and taser transfers by federally licensed firearm dealers are subject to Section 3.1.

(a-5) Any person who is not a federally licensed firearm dealer and who desires to transfer or sell a firearm while that person is on the grounds of a gun show must, before selling or transferring the firearm, request the Department of State Police to conduct a background check on the prospective recipient of the firearm in accordance with Section 3.1.

(b) Any person within this State who transfers or causes to be transferred any firearm, stun gun, or taser shall keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 years from the date of transfer. Such record shall contain the date of the transfer; the description, serial number or other information identifying the firearm, stun gun, or taser if no serial number is available; and, if the transfer was completed within this State, the transferee's Firearm Owner's Identification Card number. On or after January 1, 2006, the record shall contain the date of application for transfer of the firearm. On demand of a peace officer such transferor shall produce for inspection such record of transfer. If the transfer or sale took place at a gun show, the record shall include the unique identification number. Failure to record the unique identification number is a petty offense.

(b-5) Any resident may purchase ammunition from a person outside of Illinois. Any resident purchasing ammunition outside the State of Illinois must provide the seller with a copy of his or her valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card and either his or her Illinois driver's license or Illinois State Identification Card prior to the shipment of the ammunition. The ammunition may be shipped only to an address on either of those 2 documents.

(c) The provisions of this Section regarding the transfer of firearm ammunition shall not apply to those persons specified in paragraph (b) of Section 2 of this Act.

(Source: P.A. 94-6, eff. 1-1-06; 94-284, eff. 7-21-05; 94-353, eff. 7-29-05; 94-571, eff. 8-12-05; 95-331, eff. 8-21-07.)
The most important parts obviously highlighted in red.

If the spirit of this law was intended to prohibit the sale of ammunition to non-residents of Illinois, then section 3 paragraph C should have specified an omittance of section 2 paragraph b #'s 8 and 9. But it doesn't. Since no omittance is made, that I can find, anywhere, in Illinois State Law, then the law is quite clear: Non-Residents can drive to Bass Pro Shops and purchase ammo legally.

As laws are written - if it doesn't specify then it doesn't apply. Or more pointedly, if the glove don't fit...acquit.

Section 3 clearly fails to make a distinction between types of firearm ammunition. As such, since there is no distinction made, the law applies to all calibers regardless if handgun or long gun.

But as of writing this thread, Bass Pro Shops refuses to act upon this information.



IN SUMMARY


So in summary, we seek to get Bass Pro Shops to get rid of this policy since there is no need for it to exist in the first place. And we aim to use the power of the internet to accomplish it with an official Boycott.


So if you're interested in joining the cause, there are several ways you can help out!:







E-Mail BPS Customer Service

Email BASS PRO SHOPS CUSTOMER SERVICE and send them your opinion on the matter.






Sign the Petition
You can CLICK HEREto read the petition and sign!





Have your own website?
Simply insert this code somewhere on your webpage and help spread the word!


HTML Code:


<script type="text/javascript" src="http://dingo.care2.com/petitions/embed.js"></script>

<div class="care2PetitionEmbed" rssPath="http://www.thepetitionsite.com/xml/petitions/166/439/051/feed.swf" adSize="small" publisherId="172526729" grabbed="0" flags="#000000" buttonColor="#22489c">
</div>





Share on Facebook
Want to help spread the word and get others involved?
Post this to your Facebook Wall





Every little bit helps!

jordan89 03-11-2012 05:43 AM

Thanks for taking the time to put this thread together.

I gave away a BPS gift card in a contest last month.

It will be the last time.

PrimePorkchop 03-11-2012 05:47 AM

The "too long didnt read" version of this post is this:

We feel as though Bass Pro Shops are choosing to say "screw you" to gun owners. You can fight back by


Sending them an Email

or
Signing the Petition
or
You can Post to your Facebook Wall

Also, if you have a website, you can post a widget to the petition by inserting the following code


HTML Code:


<script type="text/javascript" src="http://dingo.care2.com/petitions/embed.js"></script>

<div class="care2PetitionEmbed" rssPath="http://www.thepetitionsite.com/xml/petitions/166/439/051/feed.swf" adSize="small" publisherId="172526729" grabbed="0" flags="#000000" buttonColor="#22489c">
</div>

or you can do all of them - it's completely up to you. I hope you'll join our cause and show them that the 2nd Amendment means everything to us, and that we believe it means a lot to them, but we expect them to do their homework and not erect pointless policies that prohibit the exercise of the right, in any way shape or form, unless otherwise mandated by law!

Papa_Woody 03-11-2012 07:02 AM

Wow way to sum it up for everyone. I sent another email.

texaswoodworker 03-11-2012 07:14 AM

Petition signed. (I kind of perfer Cabelas anyways. :D)

jordan89 03-11-2012 07:14 AM

Petition signed. Keep us updated on the amount of signatures and such!

paintsplat 03-11-2012 09:41 AM

Signed, well no more ordering from them for me.

Buckethead47 03-11-2012 11:47 AM

You got my sig.

Balota 03-11-2012 12:30 PM

Signed. My only contact with Bass Pro Shops will be to see if they have changed their policies.

ScottA 03-11-2012 01:28 PM

Good job. When you post to FB and other sources, include the link to this thread so people can see the details.


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