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Old 04-10-2013, 09:14 PM   #61
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As for the fire, that is not debatable. Koresh started it. No question whatsoever of that.
I was not aware that had been definitively proven; do you have a link to a related article or court testimony or something?

I have heard many people familiar with tear gas say that deploying it does involve a risk of fire in a residential structure.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:23 PM   #62
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Loc,

I agree with everything in ^^this^^ post... except that ALL the blame falls on Koresh and Weaver.

The Government knew that Koresh's people were convinced that HE was the second coming of Christ. The Government knew that his people were preparing for the end of the world and that this end, "per Koresh's teachings" would be delivered upon them by the Federal Government.

Therefore... the Government KNEW that serving the warrant, while Koresh was present... WOULD lead to a stand off.

My problem with the Government is with the "intent" of there actions. No one can review the evidence the Government had at the time of the warrant and reach the conclusion that they were "innocently" attempting to serve it.

Had they truly been looking to secure the safety of the Davidians and there children, they would have swept up Koresh while he was in town... and then, served the warrant.

This simple act would have prevented the stand off entirely and no one would have died.

...and Weaver. The entire thing happened because the Government targeted his "sepratist lifesyle", enticed, and entrapped him. Federal agents misrepresented themselves and convinced him to sell them a couple of sawed off shotguns... something anyone with half a brain would realize that any end user could do for themselves.

This is the reason I doubt Weaver was ever playing with a full deck. The man was a simpleton, facing a 10 year Federal Prison term because Government agents lied to and bribed a financially strapped individual.

You may find "entrapment" to be a legitimate tactic of law enforcement... I find it to be a good reason to shoot.

Tack
Tack I agree with many of your points. But not that Koresh
wasn't the responsible party. If someone believes that I'm the second coming and follows me into a gun battle that's their problem, not society's problem.

I too, have a problem with "intent." But they covered their bases legally. Koresh and his followers could have had their day in court. They freely chose not to. what they believed was irrelevant. They opened fire instead of calling the lawyer.

And Weaver's stupidity is not a defense against a
crime. If it were, and all stupid criminals were given a pass, there would be no one in jail.

These are very emotional cases and men of good faith can have different opinions. I recognize that. But whenever anyone allows their hatred of our government to fester until it boils over, and they start shooting at people, the government has no choice but to respond quickly and harshly.

As you yourself have said, "if they shoot at me, I'm going to shoot back." So will the law.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:26 PM   #63
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I was not aware that had been definitively proven; do you have a link to a related article or court testimony or something?

I have heard many people familiar with tear gas say that deploying it does involve a risk of fire in a residential structure.
Both smoke grenades and the older tear gas canisters get hot enough to burn the crap out of you if you try pick one up and toss it back. I'm certain either could start a fire if resting on a combustible surface.

...and I've never seen this proven one way or the other. But, it's irrelevant, if Federal Thugs were not looking for a fight, they'd have swept Koresh up when he exited the compound... and then... served the warrant.

None of those folks would have resisted violently with him present.

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Old 04-10-2013, 09:26 PM   #64
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I was not aware that had been definitively proven; do you have a link to a related article or court testimony or something?

I have heard many people familiar with tear gas say that deploying it does involve a risk of fire in a residential structure.
Gello, the tapes of the "bugs" in the compound were played at the trial of the surviving members, and also at the hearings of the Senate Judiciary committee. Strangely enough, the senator that was the most critical of the FBI was Feinstein.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:28 PM   #65
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Apparently a judge thought there was sufficient probable cause to issue a warrant. Insurmountable evidence is needed to convict at trial. It is not needed for a search warrant.

As for the fire, that is not debatable. Koresh started it. No question whatsoever of that.

And you're right, entrapment is illegal. But it is not just cause to defy a court order or resist arrest. If Weaver felt he had been entrapped, he was free to have his day in court and say so. He chose instead to resist. Weaver and Harris were tried for killing the marshal and were acquitted. Tried on the weapons charge and convicted. so apparently the jury didn't think he met the legal requirements of entrapment.

The system is far from perfect. But if we're going to have any order in society, those that choose to shoot it out with the law are going to have to be dealt with. Harshly!
The fire IS debateable. There is NO QUESTION about that. The is plenty of evidence that the fire may have been started by the feds.

As for the judge, he was wrong. Rumors and gun ownership are NOT good reasons for a warrent. He did NOT have probable cause.

As for Weaver, he had the right to resist an ILLEGAL arrest, just like we all do. The Feds were COMPLETELY wrong. They opened fire on Weaver and his family, and killed innocent people. THAT is unacceptable.

Dealt with harshly? It sounds like you condone the government killing people they don't like, or that know their rights and act on them. That is unbeleavably unAmerican. That is NOT the american way, or what they founding fathers wanted for this country. THAT is why we have the 2nd Amendment.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:37 PM   #66
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Both smoke grenades and the older tear gas canisters get hot enough to burn the crap out of you if you try pick one up and toss it back. I'm certain either could start a fire if resting on a combustible surface.

...and I've never seen this proven one way or the other. But, it's irrelevant, if Federal Thugs were not looking for a fight, they'd have swept Koresh up when he exited the compound... and then... served the warrant.

None of those folks would have resisted violently with him present
Tack
That part I tend to agree with.

No question they were looking for a sensational, dramatic news story.

But do you honestly think that they would have done what they did if they had known that the results were going to actually be a gun battle?? That people were going to be killed?

I simply cannot accept that. Regardless of political squabbles, The U.S.A. is not NAZI Germany. Even the hated BATF is not the Gestapo. I've worked with federal agents. I've had a few beers with them from time to time. I've hunted and fished with them. These people can be arrogant and overbearing at times, but they are not murderers.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:40 PM   #67
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Tack, I agree that it was a clusterf**k from the gitgo. no question of that.

But it is also an inescapable fact that Koresh, and Koresh alone was responsible for the burning of those children.

Had I been in command of the scene, I would have kept the siege in place for a year if necessary rather than ordering an assault on the compound. But I wasn't in command. The wisdom of that order will be debated forever.

but the inescapable fact remains that if Koresh and his people would have simply stepped aside and allowed the search warrant to be served, there would have been on injuries or deaths whatsoever.

In the final analysis, regardless of any mistakes or poor judgement made by anyone else, the responsibility for the deaths rests on David Koresh alone.

Ruby Ridge is a little different. But still, Randy Weaver was a criminal. The old "devil made me do it" or I was entrapped just doesn't cut it. He committed a crime, regardless of the reason.

And he was convicted on the illegal weapon charge and did time. 18 months, IIRC.

I'm not trying to defend government screw ups. They are indefensible. And yes, Hoiuchi should be in prison.

What I am trying to point out is that we shouldn't be trying to make folk heros out of stupid criminal assh0les like Koresh and Weaver.
You would miss your court date also if the date typed on the papers is wrong.

Third paragraph
http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=randy+weavers+co urt+summons+has+wrong+date&source=bl&ots=zabkJfm5X N&sig=4dgyhEvX3BHV3M1dIJWiHrRbncs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CN tlUeTGLPLK4AOA_oFQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBg

I guess it was an honest mistake huh ?
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:43 PM   #68
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You would miss your court date also if the date typed on the papers is wron

I guess it was an honest mistake huh ?
That's a good point. But there were numerous opportunities for him to surrender later.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:49 PM   #69
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That's a good point. But there were numerous opportunities for him to surrender later.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/gangsters_outlaws/cops_others/randy_weaver/20.html

Second paragragh, weaver was not convicted of any federal crimes. He was sentenced for not making the court appearence and for violating his bail agreement.

Locutus: latin for (the one who has spoken)

that is a pretty lofty handle you give yourself. Maybe you should speak more facts instead of just being a hometeam cheerleader.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:56 PM   #70
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That's a good point. But there were numerous opportunities for him to surrender later.
He did surrender ! To a trusted American, Col. Bo Gritz.

Would you surrender to the bastards who just killed your dog , son and wife while she holds your infant daughter? Think about that for a minute.
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