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Old 04-09-2013, 11:22 PM   #51
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ellis,

I clicked on CNS and one of the first things I saw was a sidebar link to "illuminati Watch." That's conspiracy stuff.

I scrolled down a bit and there was material from Alex Jones.

At that point, their credibility went to zero in my estimation.

I've read several articles from Canada Free Press, and there was a lot of conspiracy nonsense there as well.

Sorry, but conspiracy theories just alienate me.

That’s OK, locutus.

I didn't see it…but then I probably just missed it. I certainly respect your opinion, not only on this thread but on other topics as well.

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Old 04-10-2013, 02:16 PM   #52
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That’s OK, locutus.

I didn't see it…but then I probably just missed it. I certainly respect your opinion, not only on this thread but on other topics as well.

ellis

And I respect your opinion as well!
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Old 04-10-2013, 02:59 PM   #53
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And I respect your opinion as well!
And yet, you have used the term "Conspiracy nut" while referring to members here numerous times. That's really respectful.

Remember, a conspiracy theory is only a theory until it actually happens, which it does a lot of the time. Everything from the Government testing chemicals on unknowing citizens (Actually happened, and the Government fessed up to it), to gun confiscations (Hurricane Katrina), to the Government killing citizens for no good reason (see Waco and Ruby Ridge). It has happened, and can happen again. NEVER say it can't/won't.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:17 PM   #54
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And yet, you have used the term "Conspiracy nut" while referring to members here numerous times. That's really respectful.

Remember, a conspiracy theory is only a theory until it actually happens, which it does a lot of the time. Everything from the Government testing chemicals on unknowing citizens (Actually happened, and the Government fessed up to it), to gun confiscations (Hurricane Katrina), to the Government killing citizens for no good reason (see Waco and Ruby Ridge). It has happened, and can happen again. NEVER say it can't/won't.
1. I have referred to people on extremist websites as conspiracy nuts. I have not used that term to define other members here.

2.Innocent people at Waco?? Ya gotta be sh!tt!n' me. Religious lunatic anarchists opened fire on officers attempting to serve a legal search warrant signed by a judge. Shooting back at murderous anarchists is killing innocent people???? WOW! JUST, WOW!!

3. Ruby Ridge?? A man made an illegal weapon, with the full knowledge that it was going to criminals in large urban areas and he's innocent??? Really??

I readily admit that in both of these cases, federal LE "punched the pooch" in the way they were handled. But these were not innocent people. Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination.

Katrina is a valid point. But that was ordered by the local mayor and police chief, not the state or federal authorities.

And laws have since been enacted to prevent it from happening again.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:08 PM   #55
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1. I have referred to people on extremist websites as conspiracy nuts. I have not used that term to define other members here.

2.Innocent people at Waco?? Ya gotta be sh!tt!n' me. Religious lunatic anarchists opened fire on officers attempting to serve a legal search warrant signed by a judge. Shooting back at murderous anarchists is killing innocent people???? WOW! JUST, WOW!!

3. Ruby Ridge?? A man made an illegal weapon, with the full knowledge that it was going to criminals in large urban areas and he's innocent??? Really??

I readily admit that in both of these cases, federal LE "punched the pooch" in the way they were handled. But these were not innocent people. Not by the wildest stretch of the imagination.

Katrina is a valid point. But that was ordered by the local mayor and police chief, not the state or federal authorities.

And laws have since been enacted to prevent it from happening again.
Loc,

I've gotta take issues with a few of these. Yes, there were plenty of innocent victims at Waco! None of the children who burned ever fired a shot at anyone. Prior to the Siege, Koresh was making near daily trips into town. The Fed's could have easily swept him up "without" incident while he was outside the compound. The entire "pretense" of the search warrant that led to all of this was "anonymous" claims of child molestation by Koresh, and gun hording?

I think we agree that the Fed's FOOBAR'D the entire thing, but I believe it was an intentional Siege for the purpose of proving a point to the American People, it resulted in dozens of unnecessary deaths, it accomplished absolutely NOTHING productive, and not 1 single member of Law Enforcement was reprimanded, let alone charged with anything.

Taking the entire event in context, personally, I feel that the AFT guys who were catching 7.62 x 39 on that roof... was justified.

Anyone looking at Waco who can not say that those in command should be in a prison cell, does not understand what it is to be an American Citizen.

Ruby Ridge... you mean the "entrapment" of Randy Weaver by a couple of Federal Pukes looking to make a case because the guy chose to raise his family in isolation? That Ruby Ridge?

I think we can all agree that Weaver was not the brightest bulb in the box and certainly made his mistakes... but again, Federal Thuggery led to the killing of his 14 year old son and his wife. Now, I can understand the "heat of the moment" action by the Marshals that killed Weavers son... BUT... WTF were they doing, acting like god damn Navy Seals, camo'd up and conducting a "snoop & poop" on American Soil, when there intel told them that the Weaver Family patrolled there property "armed".

Hmm... Looking for a confrontation would be my guess... and the fact that FBI Sniper Lon Horiuchi is not currently being ass raped in a Federal Prison for the murder of Vicki Weaver is BS

Now please, don't tell me that any of the Fed's actions were justified... If they were, Weaver would be in prison and the Fed's would not have cut him a substantial check for there monumental stupidity.

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Old 04-10-2013, 05:56 PM   #56
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Loc,

I've gotta take issues with a few of these. Yes, there were plenty of innocent victims at Waco! None of the children who burned ever fired a shot at anyone. Prior to the Siege, Koresh was making near daily trips into town. The Fed's could have easily swept him up "without" incident while he was outside the compound. The entire "pretense" of the search warrant that led to all of this was "anonymous" claims of child molestation by Koresh, and gun hording?

I think we agree that the Fed's FOOBAR'D the entire thing, but I believe it was an intentional Siege for the purpose of proving a point to the American People, it resulted in dozens of unnecessary deaths, it accomplished absolutely NOTHING productive, and not 1 single member of Law Enforcement was reprimanded, let alone charged with anything.

Taking the entire event in context, personally, I feel that the AFT guys who were catching 7.62 x 39 on that roof... was justified.

Anyone looking at Waco who can not say that those in command should be in a prison cell, does not understand what it is to be an American Citizen.

Ruby Ridge... you mean the "entrapment" of Randy Weaver by a couple of Federal Pukes looking to make a case because the guy chose to raise his family in isolation? That Ruby Ridge?

I think we can all agree that Weaver was not the brightest bulb in the box and certainly made his mistakes... but again, Federal Thuggery led to the killing of his 14 year old son and his wife. Now, I can understand the "heat of the moment" action by the Marshals that killed Weavers son... BUT... WTF were they doing, acting like god damn Navy Seals, camo'd up and conducting a "snoop & poop" on American Soil, when there intel told them that the Weaver Family patrolled there property "armed".

Hmm... Looking for a confrontation would be my guess... and the fact that FBI Sniper Lon Horiuchi is not currently being ass raped in a Federal Prison for the murder of Vicki Weaver is BS

Now please, don't tell me that any of the Fed's actions were justified... If they were, Weaver would be in prison and the Fed's would not have cut him a substantial check for there monumental stupidity.

Tack
Damn straight. +1 Tack, good post.
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:28 PM   #57
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Damn straight. +1 Tack, good post.
Tack, I agree that it was a clusterf**k from the gitgo. no question of that.

But it is also an inescapable fact that Koresh, and Koresh alone was responsible for the burning of those children.

Had I been in command of the scene, I would have kept the siege in place for a year if necessary rather than ordering an assault on the compound. But I wasn't in command. The wisdom of that order will be debated forever.


but the inescapable fact remains that if Koresh and his people would have simply stepped aside and allowed the search warrant to be served, there would have been on injuries or deaths whatsoever.

In the final analysis, regardless of any mistakes or poor judgement made by anyone else, the responsibility for the deaths rests on David Koresh alone.

Ruby Ridge is a little different. But still, Randy Weaver was a criminal. The old "devil made me do it" or I was entrapped just doesn't cut it. He committed a crime, regardless of the reason.

And he was convicted on the illegal weapon charge and did time. 18 months, IIRC.

I'm not trying to defend government screw ups. They are indefensible. And yes, Hoiuchi should be in prison.

What I am trying to point out is that we shouldn't be trying to make folk heros out of stupid criminal assh0les like Koresh and Weaver.
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Old 04-10-2013, 06:53 PM   #58
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Tack, I agree that it was a clusterf**k from the gitgo. no question of that.

But it is also an inescapable fact that Koresh, and Koresh alone was responsible for the burning of those children.

Had I been in command of the scene, I would have kept the siege in place for a year if necessary rather than ordering an assault on the compound. But I wasn't in command. The wisdom of that order will be debated forever.


but the inescapable fact remains that if Koresh and his people would have simply stepped aside and allowed the search warrant to be served, there would have been on injuries or deaths whatsoever.

In the final analysis, regardless of any mistakes or poor judgement made by anyone else, the responsibility for the deaths rests on David Koresh alone.

Ruby Ridge is a little different. But still, Randy Weaver was a criminal. The old "devil made me do it" or I was entrapped just doesn't cut it. He committed a crime, regardless of the reason.

And he was convicted on the illegal weapon charge and did time. 18 months, IIRC.

I'm not trying to defend government screw ups. They are indefensible. And yes, Hoiuchi should be in prison.

What I am trying to point out is that we shouldn't be trying to make folk heros out of stupid criminal assh0les like Koresh and Weaver.
Never said they were heros, just pointing out that the government is more than capable of killing innocents civilians, and breaking the law. The feds shouldn't have tried to search the compoud just because of rumors of child molestation and gun hording. THAT is not enough for probable cause. They should have actually gotten evidence that a crime was actually being committed. As for the fire, the question of who started it is still up for debate. Also, last time I checked, entrapment is ILLEGAL.

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Old 04-10-2013, 07:02 PM   #59
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Tack, I agree that it was a clusterf**k from the gitgo. no question of that.

But it is also an inescapable fact that Koresh, and Koresh alone was responsible for the burning of those children.

Had I been in command of the scene, I would have kept the siege in place for a year if necessary rather than ordering an assault on the compound. But I wasn't in command. The wisdom of that order will be debated forever.


but the inescapable fact remains that if Koresh and his people would have simply stepped aside and allowed the search warrant to be served, there would have been on injuries or deaths whatsoever.

In the final analysis, regardless of any mistakes or poor judgement made by anyone else, the responsibility for the deaths rests on David Koresh alone.

Ruby Ridge is a little different. But still, Randy Weaver was a criminal. The old "devil made me do it" or I was entrapped just doesn't cut it. He committed a crime, regardless of the reason.

And he was convicted on the illegal weapon charge and did time. 18 months, IIRC.

I'm not trying to defend government screw ups. They are indefensible. And yes, Hoiuchi should be in prison.

What I am trying to point out is that we shouldn't be trying to make folk heros out of stupid criminal assh0les like Koresh and Weaver.
Loc,

I agree with everything in ^^this^^ post... except that ALL the blame falls on Koresh and Weaver.

The Government knew that Koresh's people were convinced that HE was the second coming of Christ. The Government knew that his people were preparing for the end of the world and that this end, "per Koresh's teachings" would be delivered upon them by the Federal Government.

Therefore... the Government KNEW that serving the warrant, while Koresh was present... WOULD lead to a stand off.

My problem with the Government is with the "intent" of there actions. No one can review the evidence the Government had at the time of the warrant and reach the conclusion that they were "innocently" attempting to serve it.

Had they truly been looking to secure the safety of the Davidians and there children, they would have swept up Koresh while he was in town... and then, served the warrant.

This simple act would have prevented the stand off entirely and no one would have died.

...and Weaver. The entire thing happened because the Government targeted his "sepratist lifesyle", enticed, and entrapped him. Federal agents misrepresented themselves and convinced him to sell them a couple of sawed off shotguns... something anyone with half a brain would realize that any end user could do for themselves.

This is the reason I doubt Weaver was ever playing with a full deck. The man was a simpleton, facing a 10 year Federal Prison term because Government agents lied to and bribed a financially strapped individual.

You may find "entrapment" to be a legitimate tactic of law enforcement... I find it to be a good reason to shoot.

Tack

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Old 04-10-2013, 09:03 PM   #60
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Never said they were heros, just pointing out that the government is more than capable of killing innocents civilians, and breaking the law. The feds shouldn't have tried to search the compoud just because of rumors of child molestation and gun hording. THAT is not enough for probable cause. They should have actually gotten evidence that a crime was actually being committed. As for the fire, the question of who started it is still up for debate. Also, last time I checked, entrapment is ILLEGAL.

Apparently a judge thought there was sufficient probable cause to issue a warrant. Insurmountable evidence is needed to convict at trial. It is not needed for a search warrant.

As for the fire, that is not debatable. Koresh started it. No question whatsoever of that.

And you're right, entrapment is illegal. But it is not just cause to defy a court order or resist arrest. If Weaver felt he had been entrapped, he was free to have his day in court and say so. He chose instead to resist. Weaver and Harris were tried for killing the marshal and were acquitted. Tried on the weapons charge and convicted. so apparently the jury didn't think he met the legal requirements of entrapment.

The system is far from perfect. But if we're going to have any order in society, those that choose to shoot it out with the law are going to have to be dealt with. Harshly!
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