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Old 10-07-2011, 05:55 AM   #101
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I think they are using it as a pretext to infringe on what "shall not be infringed" under the second amendment.
I don't like it, but in this case, I think ATF is only enforcing the law as it is written. Federal law prohibits unlawful users of controlled substances from obtaining firearms. Marijuana, like it or not, is defined as a controlled substance under Federal law, and its use, medical or otherwise, is unlawful under Federal law. Ergo, medical marijuana users are prohibited from obtaining firearms. You can't blame ATF for following the law (although we can marvel at the sight when then do).

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Second I see a violation of the 4th amendment as I view this as an unreasonable search without probable cause.
Um... what? There are no searches being conducted by ATF of medical marijuana users. What are you talking about?

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Also some good arguments under the 10th amendment.
Yes, maybe. But your argument here is with the whole of Federal law and policy toward medical marijuana. Under current law, ATF really has little choice.

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Third they should not be making gun dealers do this for them.
But that's what FFLs are for; to ensure that transfers are made in accordance with Federal law.

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If they want to do it fine...let them go to a judge and get a proper search warrant.
Again, what search?

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And if after that the person is tried and convicted of a felony then and only then should they be denied their 2A rights.
The law bars users of illegal drugs from buying firearms; it doesn't require a conviction. If you disagree with that, tell your Congresscritter.
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Old 10-07-2011, 06:30 AM   #102
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Default ATF says no

Thanks for your lively comments.
The search I was referring to is the search by proxy that they are demanding that the FFL's do. Unless the customer comes in to the shop smoking a joint how is the FFL going to have "reason to believe" that the person is a medical marijuana user? I just think its unenforceable. If BATFE wants this done they need to collect a list of all medical marijuana users and make it part of the background check.

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Old 10-07-2011, 06:38 AM   #103
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ATF is not demanding FFLs search anybody.

The FFL has no way to know, unless the individual answers 'yes' to the question on the 4473, or tells the FFL that they are a medical marijuana user. The FFL conducts no search, no interrogation, nothing but the usual 4473. ATF is simply saying that, if the FFL knows that an individual is a medical marijuana user, that person is prohibited from receiving a firearm. Just the same as if an FFL knows about any other disqualifying factor.

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Old 10-07-2011, 06:43 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by BB98338 View Post
Thanks for your lively comments.
The search I was referring to is the search by proxy that they are demanding that the FFL's do. Unless the customer comes in to the shop smoking a joint how is the FFL going to have "reason to believe" that the person is a medical marijuana user? I just think its unenforceable. If BATFE wants this done they need to collect a list of all medical marijuana users and make it part of the background check.
I just want to say that so far I am with you 100%. The ATF isn't going to just "know" who is a MM user by magic. It would require a somewhat long and drawn out process which, by the way, would be enormously expensive (like every other aspect of the war or drugs).

I could see some personal liberty violations as far as patient-doctor confidentiality when it comes to them making a list with which to check against.

The real argument here is, in my opinion, not whether or not the ATF is doing its job, but whether or not it should be allowed to do its job (in regard to this specific topic). Sometimes its a failure of the personnel, sometimes its a policy failure. Recognizing the difference is vitally important.

*Summary*
In this case, the ATF would (even at great fiscal and social cost) be doing its job. There is a law in place which they are supposed to enforce, they are doing their job. That means that it is a policy failure. More specifically, it means that the Federal Government has no right to dictate the legality of Marijuana or MM users and has in fact created a violation of the 10th and possibly 9th Amendments. Ergo, the law is in and of itself unlawful and should be repealed, leaving states to choose whether or not they want to tax it, let it run free, or attempt their own war on drugs (possibly with Federal help).

*EDIT*
Falsifying information on Form 4473 is a felony, and that is more than likely the best route to eliminating MM users from the field of prospective firearms purchasers as far as the ATF and Federal Government are concerned. 4th Amendment protection could severely hamper efforts to prove falsification however...

Just my perspective...
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:37 AM   #105
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In California, there is a "reccomendation" not a prescription. The recommendation is then reported to a service for law enforcement to call, confirm, and release those with a proper recommendation.
What I don't know about, is whether they are also reported to a state agency.
If so, doctor patient confidentiality is already out the window? What If a warrant was served on those same services?
Another "issue" with doctor patient confidentiality, is The dmv.
I know driving is a priviledge, etc, and I admit that makes this comparison more like apples and oranges, however, I digress.
When my sister was at the docs a few years ago, they reported her to the dmv for passing out as a passenger(car accident) and suspended her license. Took 8 months to get it back.
I don't forsee it being any different with mm, because California, or the Feds, may tell the doctors that they "have" to report it, and some doctors will do it.

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Old 10-07-2011, 11:44 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by BB98338 View Post
Thanks for your lively comments.
The search I was referring to is the search by proxy that they are demanding that the FFL's do. Unless the customer comes in to the shop smoking a joint how is the FFL going to have "reason to believe" that the person is a medical marijuana user? I just think its unenforceable. If BATFE wants this done they need to collect a list of all medical marijuana users and make it part of the background check.
Obamacare HHS rule would give government everybody's health records
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Old 10-07-2011, 12:40 PM   #107
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Thats disturbing
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Old 10-07-2011, 01:19 PM   #108
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That's crazily scary.

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Old 10-07-2011, 01:59 PM   #109
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The Government already has my medical records.

Many disabled veteran groups, many that are gun owners as well, around the country are fighting for the legalization of marijuana for chronic pain relief, and why would one need a prescription to buy marijuana when all one would have to do is query any high school kid and they could point one in the right direction of the nearest dealer?

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Old 10-07-2011, 04:07 PM   #110
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Well the problem here is one must apply for a MM card from the state to make it legal....then it becomes easy for the BATFE (should be a damn convenience store and NOT a damnfed agency) to check and squash.

My friend has one from CO....you have to choose between your MM card and your CCW card....BS IMHO

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