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Old 10-06-2013, 03:46 AM   #141
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What the Hell? I cannot, in rereading most of this, see where Tack ever said that he thought all cops, or even a majority of cops, are bad. Nowhere has he said that. What the hell is the matter with you Robo? You usually are quite adept at understanding what a person is saying and picking it apart from the accusations of other members like Delta.

Delta, you have made as many contradictions as I have seen here. You claim that

Quote:
As to your 3 Ps, when I look at someone, I only see one.

A person. Just like me. I try to always treat people the way I would want to be treated. I do my best to be fair. I try to give a guy a break when I can. If I put my hands on someone, it is because they force me to, not because I want to. Because I am a person too. And no one is going to keep me from going home at the end of my shift to see the most important people in my life.
Yet then you say
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You sound like an inmate. 9 times out of 10 when I run into an attitude like yours, it's because I'm dealing with a criminal who has been to prison before. Or someone who knows they're about to go to prison for the first time. And at least half of the time that person ends up in handcuffs by the time I finish investigating the reason for their strange behavior because they have indeed committed a crime. Am I saying you are a criminal? No. I'm saying if this isn't just internet bravado and you actually pull this crap on the street you're acting like one. All a crappy attitude like yours does is draw a lot of attention to yourself because in our eyes, that kind of behavior almost always comes from a guilty conscience.

An old school cop (long since retired) drove me through some neighborhoods on my first day. He showed me what he called "wave zones" and "no wave zones." He told me to pay attention to the "no wave" zones where people just stated at the unit as we drove by. For the next 2 weeks we rode together. Most of the calls we got were in "no wave zones."

It's not a gospel rule we use. But when someone is rude and uncooperative, it sends up red flags and draws our immediate attention when otherwise we would just be going about our normal day. Enjoying ourselves between calls and doing what we can to help people out.

I'll say this too. I always try to give a guy a break if I can. But not when I have to deal with your kind of attitude.
Seriously, you can't have it both ways. You approach people who don't answer questions as though they have been to or are going to prison. You assume that they are up to no good based on their reaction to you. Maybe they are confused, not evasive. Maybe they have no idea what you are talking about and therefore cannot give you the answers that you seek.

That was the situation I was in many years ago. I had no information, yet they dug real deep and pushed real hard. My confusion however prevented me from answering even some of the most basic questions. They took that as resistance and guilt, up until our high school boys Dean (in whose office this was taking place) stepped up and told them they were digging in a dead hole (this was in HS, and the dean knew me very well- due to my frequent visits to his office). I didn't like how I was treated like I was a criminal that day, and later found out that one of my friends had implicated me because of their tactics. He was giving them what they asked for (names) because they were applying so much pressure and he figured they were going to keep going unless he broke. The thing is that this friend was not involved in the crime either (like me) and was looking for any way out that he could find. He figured either I knew what had happened or that I would handle the pressure better than he could (or both).

Now, despite my unpleasant experience, I still maintained a healthy respect for the LGPD, I even considered a career in LE at the time- though I did not go in that direction. I had the ability to see that it was not a career path for me. The result of my experience was that when I later did find out what had indeed happened from the individuals who were involved I did not go to the cops with that info as they had requested at the end of their interrogation. I figured at that young age that they would find out on their own as much as they were entitled to. I am not sure if I was right about that, but the crime (a prank that caused damage to a person's house and was prosecuted as criminal vandalism) was "solved" and a couple of guys out of a larger group took the fall, restitution was paid by most of the guys involved. My high regard for LEOs continued for a couple of decades, through which I had a couple of experiences with LE (tickets and such) but nonetheless maintained my schoolboyish respect for the boys in blue.

I'm not sure when it changed, but it was in the last 20 years. Not sure if it was the police or me that changed. I do know one thing though, all of the really negative stuff has happened in that time. Also in that time I have not done anything to warrant the treatment I have received. I am not of the "sovereign citizen" type (and why the Hell you would bring them up in reference to Tack or me I cannot understand) and I do not have a hostile attitude in any way. But I don't answer questions unless I have a clear understanding of the context in which they are being asked. That means questions by LEO's or by anybody else.
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Old 10-06-2013, 04:07 AM   #142
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Look. I'm trying to be as tactful as possible. So I apologize in advance if it seems as though I cross the line.

And I'm certainly not a cop worshiper. But honestly I think your tin foil hat is a little too tight.

You speak of all this "militarization of police." Yet you provide no concrete examples or proof that this is an epidemic across the country. You reference cops who wear drop leg holsters and black clothes. That hardly seems like militarized police to me. Personally, I worry more about the civilians who walk around looking like that. You know, the mall-ninja types.

When regular cops (not SWAT) start walking around in full body armor at all times and arriving to the scene of a crime in a BFV or an Abrams, then I'll take your word. Until then, it just seems like a silly distrust of people who are on our side by and large. If the day comes that you speak of, meaning blue helmets and whatnot, then I believe most cops would stay on our side.

Regardless, the conspiratorial nonsense based on paranoia is getting a bit old.
Just a quick browse brought these up. Just Google it. If only a fraction of a fraction of these cases are true and correct then there is a very serious problem in this country. The story in Auburn AL is a recent one, and I believe one member here lives in or near the town who says that things are incredibly tense between officers and citizens since the new Chief started there.



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"Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
- Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
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Old 10-06-2013, 05:50 AM   #143
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When police departments have armored personnel carriers, SWAT teams that show up when there is no armed threat, that is militarization. We have police officers that are training side by side with marines. DHS is training police officers in military tactics. When a police officers are trained to take control of the situation by neutralizing all threats in a home including the family dog, that is a military tactic.

We have the warrantless monitoring of our communications and movements. We have some law enforcement agencies that feel they have the right to be judge, jury and executioner because they feel threatened. No threat has to be visible, just the possibility of a threat.

When a police officer came to my home I used to invite them in. Now, I don't know what the hell to expect from a police officer that I don't know. I meet police officers at the gate, they get no closer to my home without a warrant. I am like viking dad, I don't answer questions unless I know why the officer is asking those questions. The officer can take it in any way he wants to. If he thinks I am a criminal he can get a warrant faxed to his car.

I am not always cooperative at roadside stops. I don't drink and drive. But when a police officer asks me to recite the alphabet backwards the first thing that comes to my mind is you do it first. There was a 20/20 episode where police officers were asked to perform sobriety tests. None of the officers were able to complete some of the sobriety tests. I am not going to be cooperative when it is going to result in a waste of my time. Let me blow a breathalyzer so I can be on my way.

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Old 10-06-2013, 06:23 AM   #144
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Viking, you bring up some things that i said that apparently confused you. Also you missed some things that tack said. Allow me to clarify a few of my earlier points as well as point out some of his that you seem to have accidentally overlooked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingdad
What the Hell? I cannot, in rereading most of this, see where Tack ever said that he thought all cops, or even a majority of cops, are bad. Nowhere has he said that.
That's easy. The last half of Post #22: "Are there "honorable" officers... Sure... Until they witness misconduct or abuse and choose to look the other way.

The inconvenient truth is that we no longer have "Peace Officers"... That profession is dead. We now have "Law Enforcers" and an ounce of common sense should tell anyone that these "Enforcers" do NOT represent your "best interest"."

Quote:
What the hell is the matter with you Robo? You usually are quite adept at understanding what a person is saying and picking it apart from the accusations of other members like Delta. Delta, you have made as many contradictions as I have seen here. You claim that Yet then you say Seriously, you can't have it both ways. You approach people who don't answer questions as though they have been to or are going to prison. You assume that they are up to no good based on their reaction to you.
There is a difference between refusing to answer a question and being confused or unable to answer a question. A direct refusal to answer a question: "what is your name?" "I ain't gotta tell you NOTHING!"

Confused or unknowing: "what was the guys name? What did he look like?" "Which guy? I don't remember, it all happened so fast."

One is clearly uncooperative and combative. Which is exactly what tack said he'd do. "I wouldn't answer any questions." Those are the people who get extra scrutiny. The other is clearly just confused, not evasive.


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I am not of the "sovereign citizen" type (and why the Hell you would bring them up in reference to Tack or me I cannot understand) and I do not have a hostile attitude in any way. But I don't answer questions unless I have a clear understanding of the context in which they are being asked. That means questions by LEO's or by anybody else.
I only brought it up because Tack basically said he would refuse to provide any information whatsoever. That is the first sign that we are trained to watch for when dealing with a sovereign citizen. The failure to deliver any information. When a libertarian starts spouting political views, debating laws and rights and downright refusing to give any information at all, that's what they sound like to us. On most calls our only job is to gather enough information about what is going on to write a report on it. No arrests are made. Just documentation of the facts.

If I can't document enough facts clear myself from the call do to someone's REFUSAL to cooperate (not just someone being confused) I can't leave. I have to get the facts. If I don't do my due diligence to get the facts and something criminal is going on and someone gets hurt I am liable.

Again, to clarify, in my experience 9 times out of 10 a person who REFUSES to provide basic information is or has been involved in criminal activity. Because of that experience when a person REFUSES to provide basic information, they immediately have my full and undivided attention.

This is completely different than someone who is scared or confused.
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Nobody on this thread licked anybody's bodypart.

Nobody said anything.....about Glocks until you posted about your bacon dog who needs dentures.

What did somebody forget to engage their safety and shoot the dogs front teeth out? Or are we blaming that on the Glock shooters?

"Gaston, the Doggy dentist's best friend."

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Old 10-06-2013, 06:33 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by John_Deer
When police departments have armored personnel carriers, SWAT teams that show up when there is no armed threat, that is militarization. We have police officers that are training side by side with marines. DHS is training police officers in military tactics. When a police officers are trained to take control of the situation by neutralizing all threats in a home including the family dog, that is a military tactic. We have the warrantless monitoring of our communications and movements. We have some law enforcement agencies that feel they have the right to be judge, jury and executioner because they feel threatened. No threat has to be visible, just the possibility of a threat. When a police officer came to my home I used to invite them in. Now, I don't know what the hell to expect from a police officer that I don't know. I meet police officers at the gate, they get no closer to my home without a warrant. I am like viking dad, I don't answer questions unless I know why the officer is asking those questions. The officer can take it in any way he wants to. If he thinks I am a criminal he can get a warrant faxed to his car. I am not always cooperative at roadside stops. I don't drink and drive. But when a police officer asks me to recite the alphabet backwards the first thing that comes to my mind is you do it first. There was a 20/20 episode where police officers were asked to perform sobriety tests. None of the officers were able to complete some of the sobriety tests. I am not going to be cooperative when it is going to result in a waste of my time. Let me blow a breathalyzer so I can be on my way.
SFST has been reduced to 3 standardized tests that any normal person can complete. You can refuse. If alcohol is smelled on your breath or you stumble on the way back to your car, you will be arrested anyway.

There are no roadside breathalyzer tests available that are accurate enough to hold up in court as of September 2011. We use only the units provided by the state at their processing locations, which are mostly prisons or police stations. The portables have been phased out of use in every agency in this state as well as many other states. The breathalyzer is only a tool to prove whether alcohol is the reason a person is driving impaired. Failing the breathalyzer does not mean you get out of jail. If you are being driven to a breathalyzer it is because the officer has enough probable cause to arrest you for driving impaired. The breathalyzer is just more evidence. That's why states can implement penalties for refusing the test.

SWAT APCs in this area don't leave the lot unless there is an active team staging, deploying or training or they are on the way to a community service event to be shown off to to schoolkids.

While most of our SWAT team has been trained by the military because they are mostly ex military, all of then are required to go through SWAT school and follow the departmental use of force continuum for force and deadly the same as everybody else in the department. They just have a few more less-lethal force and deadly force tools that we don't have.

No police department anywhere should function as judge jury and executioner. The only time police are supposed to take a life is if they are afraid of another life being taken or grave bodily harm being done by the person they are using deadly force on. Every police officer that I have ever worked with in every department without exception understands this. And I have trained with police from all over the US and with some guys from London as well.
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Quote:
Nobody on this thread licked anybody's bodypart.

Nobody said anything.....about Glocks until you posted about your bacon dog who needs dentures.

What did somebody forget to engage their safety and shoot the dogs front teeth out? Or are we blaming that on the Glock shooters?

"Gaston, the Doggy dentist's best friend."

Last edited by DeltaF; 10-06-2013 at 06:58 AM.
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Old 10-06-2013, 06:46 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by alsaqr
Cops come from the same huge unwashed pool of humanity that gives us rabbis, Catholic priests and Protestant preachers. Every once in awhile folks who enter honored service from that pool turn out bad: That's just the way it goes. i don't have a problem with cops in general. i do have a problem with dishonest cops, rabbis, Catholic priests and Protestant preachers.

All the cops i know support my Second Amendment rights.
This should have been the initial point made and the rest of the crap scrapped.

I think many points have been missed by both sides.

Are cops in general bad? No, of course not. Are there a lot of bad cops? I think that is definitely a question whose answer varies department to department. I can say that where I live the city cops are a**holes and the sheriff's department is by an large nice. And I can also say I've seen exceptions both of those statements. I've met city cops that are polite and just out doing their job. One time I was down at the ferry terminal smoking a cigarette next to a bus stop which had a no smoking sign behind it. I didn't see the sign so a cop came up and asked for my I.d. I don't know if he had the right to in that circumstance, but I didn't really care so I gave it to him. After that he asked me what I was up to and I told him tht I was headed to school and he asked me what I was going to school for and was very pleasant.

Another time down at the ferry I picked someone up and pulled off with my lights off. Got pulled over less than a hundred yards away and the only place I could go was left at a stop light. So the (city) cop comes up to my window and first thing he says, in a sh*tty tone is "do you always drive with your lights off?" I felt like saying "yeah a hole I make a habit of that". Of course I have more respect than that. He then proceeds to give me crap for turning left even though I was boxed in by cars on the right. Even though I was respectful to him he was a jerk. So why should people like that deserve respect when they blindly disrespect others?

The point being I don't think anyone believes that all cops, or even most cops are bad, but there are bad ones and they don't all deserve respect especially if they are incapable of giving it.

I also believe both cops and military personnel sacrifice a lot for their jobs. I leave for basic training at the end of this month, and if I don't make a career of the military I plan on being a cop. In both of those jobs I will not demand respect from anyone. I will try harder to earn it. And if I act like a jackass and don't earn it I expect there will be plenty of people who are willing to say so. And I'm fine with that because that's the way it SHOULD be. As far as cops go though, I'll admit that they have people who automatically think they're a jackass just for the badge they wear. That I believe is wrong.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:53 AM   #147
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Funny thing is that my Mom would have said all that use the word Cop are being disrespectful to LEO's, being a slang term of not so high honer, its one I dont use as a rule. The phrase good cop, bad cop is older than the hills, it has roots than go way deeper than the last 20 years. Authority as a whole creates opportunities to be either good or bad. As Alsaqr points out, were all cut from the same material, just some of it may have holes in it.

There are only a few "rules" on FTF that Ive never fully agreed with, "bashing LEOS and Military will get you a time out" is one of them. Being a Vet with 21 years service (2 years with the MP's), I would never say that our military as a whole is pure and without failures worthy of spirited discussion. Ive served with the best, and the not so best, Honor isnt really a ubiquitous term we can use just because someone has attained an ID card or badge.

"You must trust and respect police officers", This is where Mom and I would disagree if she hadnt passed away a couple years ago, I dont really trust anyone I dont know personally be it a Teacher (Moms profession) LEO or a Soldier (yours truly). What I give is "do respect" because they have the "authority" but thats in my best interest as well as theirs. Anyone who goes chest to chest with "Da Man" in the midst of a situation is likely to be judged guilty at best, dead at worst. Ive had very few interactions on a legal basis with LEO's in the last 52 years (could count them on half a hand), each and every time I have, I have given "Due Respect", each and every time I have had a reasonable outcome.

I remember 25 years ago when our local Police Chief was booted because he had amassed an arsenal of riot gear and weapons for our sleepy little town of 2500, better equipped than the State Troopers at that point! Our little City of Utica now has what they call The Armadillo, a converted armored brinks truck for surveillance, riot response and other. I think it was Ohio State that just received their Armored Personnel Carrier. If you look at the big city swat teams, SF aint got nothing on them. I say all this because these things do change the perception of what serving the Public is, if you look like an Army, people will think you are!

We respect our military because they fight our wars in Foreign Lands, if you saw them patrolling your neighborhood in armored HUMMVs every day,dressed for battle, we may not value their interaction or presence nearly as much. LEO's looking like hit squads is as much an outcome spawned in most areas by desperation and diminished foot soldiers presence. The Officer on the beat was a known entity to all, good and bad, the one in the car is pretty much nameless and faceless until they are in your face, without a prior connection, any outcome may happen. Officers just like Soldiers are trained to live to fight another day and they do have the gun!

I dont think Police Officers are bad or good as a rule, you have to put a person and a situation to the discussion to push a proclamation of either. It matters where you are talking about as much as who your talking about as to if anything of a generalization matters. Most of the problems overall come from the rules Officers are required to follow and laws they are mandated to enforce, none of which are of their own choices, all are mandated by higher authorities.

While my vote doesnt matter here, I vote we try to keep it civil when it comes to this topic but lets not exalt a blanket rule when it comes to discussing LEO's or Military; we are they, they are we and all thing being equal, they arent!

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Old 10-06-2013, 01:22 PM   #148
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interesting epilogue to my post, I just got my first tickt in 20+ years about 20 minutes ago. I had just pulled out of my daughters house and hadnt yet put on my seatbelt. the guy nailed me ded to rights. It was a short yet nonputitive exchange, I got a ticket and down the road he went. Im pissed off at me more than him but really he didnt need to give me that ticket, a warning would have been sufficient. I wear my belt 99% ogf the time and my record was clean. Oh well, looks like I get yto fill the coffers from a differant aproach, a criminal, no seat belt!

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Old 10-06-2013, 02:00 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38
interesting epilogue to my post, I just got my first tickt in 20+ years about 20 minutes ago. I had just pulled out of my daughters house and hadnt yet put on my seatbelt. the guy nailed me ded to rights. It was a short yet nonputitive exchange, I got a ticket and down the road he went. Im pissed off at me more than him but really he didnt need to give me that ticket, a warning would have been sufficient. I wear my belt 99% ogf the time and my record was clean. Oh well, looks like I get yto fill the coffers from a differant aproach, a criminal, no seat belt!
Well dangit! (I'd have given you a warning. A box of 9mm = no ticket. [JK]. )

I always just tell people to buckle up unless they're an @$$ or unless their kids aren't in car seats.

Child restraints are like a pet peeve. Lost a friend that way when I was just barely old enough to know what it meant. That kinds thing sticks with you.

I'd say it must have been a federal grant initiative and to blame Obama, but the government is "shut down" so I guess we can't do that.

On the bright side, in most states seatbelt tickets don't go on your insurance.
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Nobody on this thread licked anybody's bodypart.

Nobody said anything.....about Glocks until you posted about your bacon dog who needs dentures.

What did somebody forget to engage their safety and shoot the dogs front teeth out? Or are we blaming that on the Glock shooters?

"Gaston, the Doggy dentist's best friend."
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Old 10-06-2013, 02:07 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
interesting epilogue to my post, I just got my first tickt in 20+ years about 20 minutes ago. I had just pulled out of my daughters house and hadnt yet put on my seatbelt. the guy nailed me ded to rights. It was a short yet nonputitive exchange, I got a ticket and down the road he went. Im pissed off at me more than him but really he didnt need to give me that ticket, a warning would have been sufficient. I wear my belt 99% ogf the time and my record was clean. Oh well, looks like I get yto fill the coffers from a differant aproach, a criminal, no seat belt!
Sorry about that Web... But it's a good example of the shift from community policing to revenue generation.

The majority of the traffic code, including seatbelt laws, exist to give an officer probable cause to stop you. His true agenda is drugs... The primary reason for the contact is to check for drugs.

Ticketing you for the seatbelt simply conceals the true motive of an illegal violation of your 4th Amendment rights.... And raises revenue by stealing your money when you've harmed no one.

The fact that you weren't pulled out, searched, ect simply means the officer, upon speaking with you and smelling your cars interior, could tell he would not score a collar with you.
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