Article: Law Enforcement vs. the 2nd Amendment - Page 13
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Old 10-05-2013, 04:29 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1
Well said Greg... The attitude of a badge granting additional rights and the anger/abuse directed at citizens who catch officers pulling crap they should not be pulling is a big part of the problem. I recognize its a minority of officers doing it but when the "good cop" next to them does nothing about the misconduct, they feed the public mistrust. This is completely a "police" problem and if good cops wish to be respected... They must have the balls to tell the truth, especially if the truth protects the public from an abusive officer. Personally... I have no crystal ball too tell me if a cop is going to be honest and respectful...or if he's an asshat trying to build rappor so he can insist on a "consentual" violation of my 4A rights? So... I simply refuse to answer questions.
You sound like an inmate. 9 times out of 10 when I run into an attitude like yours, it's because I'm dealing with a criminal who has been to prison before. Or someone who knows they're about to go to prison for the first time. And at least half of the time that person ends up in handcuffs by the time I finish investigating the reason for their strange behavior because they have indeed committed a crime. Am I saying you are a criminal? No. I'm saying if this isn't just internet bravado and you actually pull this crap on the street you're acting like one. All a crappy attitude like yours does is draw a lot of attention to yourself because in our eyes, that kind of behavior almost always comes from a guilty conscience.

An old school cop (long since retired) drove me through some neighborhoods on my first day. He showed me what he called "wave zones" and "no wave zones." He told me to pay attention to the "no wave" zones where people just stated at the unit as we drove by. For the next 2 weeks we rode together. Most of the calls we got were in "no wave zones."

It's not a gospel rule we use. But when someone is rude and uncooperative, it sends up red flags and draws our immediate attention when otherwise we would just be going about our normal day. Enjoying ourselves between calls and doing what we can to help people out.

I'll say this too. I always try to give a guy a break if I can. But not when I have to deal with your kind of attitude.
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Old 10-05-2013, 04:42 PM   #122
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There may be a better job out there for those LEO's tired of doing their job right.
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Old 10-05-2013, 05:10 PM   #123
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Delta,

Thank you ! for your community service, and holding the line.

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Old 10-05-2013, 05:53 PM   #124
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Sometimes people can get their panties in a bunch after an encounter with a LE officer because of something they themselves have done. Like driving in a congested traffic situation where an officer is directing traffic, and stopping to ask the officer for directions to Joe's Diner. The officer tells him off and sends him on his way without spending 3 minutes to give the jerk the directions. The jerk goes away all bent out of shape because the officer didn't interrupt the flow of traffic of 600 cars just to give him directions. But to the OP's point, different people have different opinions on the subject of the 2A. I would guess (not from experience) that a cop who has had numerous encounters with idiots being irresponsible with guns, or with gangsta's blowing each other away, and has never encountered a private citizen who responsibly saved his or another's life with a gun, would have a negative outlook on private citizens owning firearms. It would depend upon each individual cop's experiences to determine his/her attitude toward the 2A. The best we can do is to make sure we are always squeaky clean in our dealings with others, including cops, so we don't create or reinforce a negative picture of gun owners.

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Old 10-05-2013, 06:12 PM   #125
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Sorry to disappoint you but no... I've never been arressted, never encountered LEO's outside of a couple of traffic stops, and actually shoot with and perform RSO duty with several VPD and Clark Co Sheriff deputies at the private gun club we share.

My attitude toward police misconduct is born of my military training where it was not enough to refuse an unlawful order... it was expected of soldiers to also stop anyone else from carrying out unlawful orders.

I'm also a libertarian who rejects the governments notion that it can coerce citizens to do anything.

Limit your duty to "calls for service" and apply common sence.. And you'll have my respect. Participate in blatant violations of the 4th and 5th amendments and you will filmed and perhaps "baited" into doing something stupid.

LEO failure to police it's own ranks is the reason activists with cameras are doing it for you.

Please understand that it's not about you as an individual... I'm certain that if we lined up together at the gun range we'd get along just fine... Unfortunately, too many of your fellow officers refuse to hold one another accountable, lie for one another, and frankly, have created a situation where the public has NO reason to trust or respect any of you.

Accepting that my "attitude" is created by police misconduct is the first step toward solving the problem.

Tack

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaF View Post
You sound like an inmate. 9 times out of 10 when I run into an attitude like yours, it's because I'm dealing with a criminal who has been to prison before. Or someone who knows they're about to go to prison for the first time. And at least half of the time that person ends up in handcuffs by the time I finish investigating the reason for their strange behavior because they have indeed committed a crime. Am I saying you are a criminal? No. I'm saying if this isn't just internet bravado and you actually pull this crap on the street you're acting like one. All a crappy attitude like yours does is draw a lot of attention to yourself because in our eyes, that kind of behavior almost always comes from a guilty conscience.

An old school cop (long since retired) drove me through some neighborhoods on my first day. He showed me what he called "wave zones" and "no wave zones." He told me to pay attention to the "no wave" zones where people just stated at the unit as we drove by. For the next 2 weeks we rode together. Most of the calls we got were in "no wave zones."

It's not a gospel rule we use. But when someone is rude and uncooperative, it sends up red flags and draws our immediate attention when otherwise we would just be going about our normal day. Enjoying ourselves between calls and doing what we can to help people out.

I'll say this too. I always try to give a guy a break if I can. But not when I have to deal with your kind of attitude.
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:30 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaF View Post
You sound like an inmate. 9 times out of 10 when I run into an attitude like yours, it's because I'm dealing with a criminal who has been to prison before. Or someone who knows they're about to go to prison for the first time. And at least half of the time that person ends up in handcuffs by the time I finish investigating the reason for their strange behavior because they have indeed committed a crime.
If you approach people like Tack (and probably me) with that attitude then you are a part of the problem we are talking about. Tack and I (though we have never met in RL) are both libertarians. We know our rights and we have a strong understanding of the law- which is admittedly not going to be the same level expected of LEOs, but sometimes we do know it better!

Neither of us has been to prison and we are just as unlikely to do something that would place us there as you are.

Not all cops are bad. Some are good cops, but still act like thugs and bullies with people who know their rights in a misguided attempt to get a rise out of them. You almost sound like one of those through reading your posts.

That having been said, my hat is off to you. You have a hard job that is often quite thankless. You are in the public eye and under a microscope in every detail of your professional life (and sometimes private life as well). That is not a career I would do well in, simply because I am not suited for it. Thanks for doing an ugly job. Please do it well.
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:36 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tackleberry1
Sorry to disappoint you but no... I've never been arressted, never encountered LEO's outside of a couple of traffic stops, and actually shoot with and perform RSO duty with several VPD and Clark Co Sheriff deputies at the private gun club we share. My attitude toward police misconduct is born of my military training where it was not enought to refuse and unlawful order... it was expected of soldiers to also stop anyone else from carrying out unlawful orders. I'm also a libertarian who rejects the governments notion that it can coerce citizens to do anything. Limit your duty to "calls for service" and apply common sence.. And you'll have my respect. Participate in blatant violations of the 4th and 5th amendments and you will filmed and perhaps "baited" into doing something stupid. LEO failure to police it's own ranks is the reason activists with cameras are doing it for you. Please understand that it's not about you as an individual... I'm certain that if we lined up together at the gun range we'd get along just fine... Unfortunately, too many of your fellow officers refuse to hold one another accountable, lie for one another, and frankly, have created a situation where the public has NO reason to trust or respect any of you. Accepting that my "attitude" is created by police misconduct is the first step toward solving the problem. Tack
The "problem" as JimRau stated is that police are human beings. Who are not and never will be perfect. 0.8% of 700,000 police officers were accused of misconduct and only 0.1% were found guilty in 2010. The overwhelming majority of local police are simply in the career to help as many people as they can. The pay sucks, the hours sucks and a lot of time the work sucks. We sacrifice our lives and our families to make the community a better place and to help people.

We don't turn our backs on illegal activity. The worst thing that most of us do is cut each other breaks on minor traffic violations.
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Old 10-05-2013, 06:52 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingdad
If you approach people like Tack (and probably me) with that attitude then you are a part of the problem we are talking about. Tack and I (though we have never met in RL) are both libertarians. We know our rights and we have a strong understanding of the law- which is admittedly not going to be the same level expected of LEOs, but sometimes we do know it better! Neither of us has been to prison and we are just as unlikely to do something that would place us there as you are.
Being uncooperative just because you can accomplishes nothing except to draw unneeded attention to yourself. Every cop Ive ever worked with deals with cooperative people one way, and uncooperative people a different way. It's that simple. If an uncooperative person makes getting the information needed to finish a call write a report and go on about our day a miserable experience, most guys have no problem returning the favor if the circumstances and law allows them to do so in a professional and polite manner.

Youtube sovereign citizen kills cop. The encounter starts off with views fairly similar to a libertarian's. It ends with a dead cop. I've dealt with them before too. There's a lot of them out there. They do the same thing, refusing to answer any questions, provide ID etc. but its a delaying tactic while they wait for the opportunity to hurt or kill one of us. This is the kind of behavior I'm talking about.

My own political views are a mix between Reagan conservatism and libertarianism. I understand individual rights and liberties. I don't ask anything unreasonable or illegal but there are usually certain things I have to accomplish as far as information gathering before I can leave. And until those things are accomplished, we are stuck with one another. And if you are giving off a vibe like you are in the middle of an illegal activity or are looking to hurt me, you can expect some extra special scrutiny. Because number 1 I'm going home to my family no matter what. And number 2 if I can stop somebody else from getting hurt, that's my job. That's why I became a cop. To help people, and to keep them from getting hurt if I can.
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:02 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaF View Post
The "problem" as JimRau stated is that police are human beings. Who are not and never will be perfect. 0.8% of 700,000 police officers were accused of misconduct and only 0.1% were found guilty in 2010. The overwhelming majority of local police are simply in the career to help as many people as they can. The pay sucks, the hours sucks and a lot of time the work sucks. We sacrifice our lives and our families to make the community a better place and to help people.
... And Jim is correct... But to think the "reported" or the "convicted" numbers are accurate is absurd.

1. Most don't report out of fear of retaliation.
2. Lacking video evidence... No cop gets convicted.

...and don't whine about overtime, how Haaard it is, the pay, or the Danger. As an admitted "non" veteran... You have no idea what ****ty pay and sacrifice really is.

Tack
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Old 10-05-2013, 07:37 PM   #130
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Asserting your rights does not equal uncooperative... and I don't need your favors.

I Don't give a darn if your job requires you to get my ID.

Unless you are issuing me a summons or arresting me... I have NO obligation to speak with you, or identify myself.

Yes, there are still bad laws on the books covering this but numerous court cases have rendered these laws impotent. Most officers know this but will happily lie to and intimidate citizens to gain compliance.

Hence the cameras...

Try to grasp the notion that citizen asserting their right is a push back against officers who "think" they are entitled to anyone's I'd for any reason.

Men like me did not serve to defend liberty so we could come home and have some BDU clad youngster demand our papers.

Tack

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaF View Post
Being uncooperative just because you can accomplishes nothing except to draw unneeded attention to yourself. Every cop Ive ever worked with deals with cooperative people one way, and uncooperative people a different way. It's that simple. If an uncooperative person makes getting the information needed to finish a call write a report and go on about our day a miserable experience, most guys have no problem returning the favor if the circumstances and law allows them to do so in a professional and polite manner.

Youtube sovereign citizen kills cop. The encounter starts off with views fairly similar to a libertarian's. It ends with a dead cop. I've dealt with them before too. There's a lot of them out there. They do the same thing, refusing to answer any questions, provide ID etc. but its a delaying tactic while they wait for the opportunity to hurt or kill one of us. This is the kind of behavior I'm talking about.

My own political views are a mix between Reagan conservatism and libertarianism. I understand individual rights and liberties. I don't ask anything unreasonable or illegal but there are usually certain things I have to accomplish as far as information gathering before I can leave. And until those things are accomplished, we are stuck with one another. And if you are giving off a vibe like you are in the middle of an illegal activity or are looking to hurt me, you can expect some extra special scrutiny. Because number 1 I'm going home to my family no matter what. And number 2 if I can stop somebody else from getting hurt, that's my job. That's why I became a cop. To help people, and to keep them from getting hurt if I can.
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