Article: Law Enforcement vs. the 2nd Amendment - Page 12
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Old 10-05-2013, 04:28 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by DeltaF View Post
Yeah that kinda crap happens a lot in some places. Agencies have to police their own. A lot of them are installing cameras and GPS trackers to put a stop to this kind of thing.

Then again riding audible and visible code to calls sometimes causes more wrecks than it avoids. Sometimes it's safer to rock and roll without the woo woo lights and sirens and risk the complaint calls.

Also, some Code 3 calls SOP is to go in as quickly as possible without lights and sirens to avoid letting the subject know we've been dispatched and how close we are. In a convenience store robbery for example, as long as there are no shots fired, the goal is usually to box the subjects in after they exit the store and prevent re-entry to avoid a possible hostage situation. So no lights or sirens when running to that call. But you still have to get there as fast as possible without crashing out.

We get some pretty intense driving training fresh out of the academy plus driving in service throughout the year to be able to do this as safely as possible. Its a lot of fun!

Unfortunately though in some places there are guys who just drive fast to drive fast. And that's not safe for anybody. :-(
Unfortunately its not just about the driving though. Yes, there are some agencies that are worse than others. I can point to several around here where some are straight up honest and good cops throughout the force (Los Gatos PD) and right next door in Campbell the force if full of thugs and bullies who will outright force a confrontation where there is not one to begin with. These two neighboring agencies have been like this for decades. I have known officers in both departments (one LG cop is a neighbor and I used to work on a Campbell PD officer's cars). I have had interactions with both agencies over the years and while not once have I ever experienced anything but total professionalism with LGPD on several occasions I have had situations that were completely out of line in Campbell. On one occasion I wrote letters of complaint to the Mayor and all City Council members and the result was that my boss was contacted and told that his company would no longer be welcome on jobs in Campbell. He told them that he fired me in order to keep the jobs he had there (he just never sends me into Campbell on jobs anymore). I have several friends who are cops. As far as I know they are great cops (or at least if they have any semblance of the face they show me they are!). But I have also known several people who have been railroaded by the police too. My brother-in-law was pistol-whipped by a Sheriff's Deputy while two others stood by and watched when he was passed out drunk in his own garage, then they put him in his own truck and told him to get the Hell out of there. I assume they were planning on catching him and getting him for DUI, but he pulled in to my place before they could find him (I live right up the road). I tell this story because in it there were two officers who did not participate directly in the pistol-whipping but they did allow it to happen and did nothing to stop it. One of them actually told BIL to just relax and let him do it because if he fought back it was gonna be worse. That incident was never reported, even though I urged my BIL to report it.

So yes, entire cities can become corrupt and enable a rotten PD to be thugs. But on the other hand, police work, due to the nature of the work itself and the authority given to officers, is a natural magnet career for people who are thugs and bullies. I think that is probably the biggest issue that agencies have to overcome.
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Old 10-05-2013, 04:39 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by DeltaF View Post
Ever stop and think about the fact that a lot of police these days are current or retired military? Takes a while to get some of them to stop saying "over" on the radio. And some of their other habits/terminology just don't change at all.

Also a lot of the tactical training is done by trainers with a military background who use military terminology. Don't like the police arming up with military tactics? Kindly ask the gangbangers to stop using AK-47s, and kindly ask the crazies to stop shooting up schools and movie theaters in our cities.

We could use the time off. Those training hours take us away from our families on our days off.
First let me state this.. I'm not hating here on the police, on you , or the law abiding civilian.

2nd I've been a public servant all my adult working life.

So I speak with first hand knowledge based on my experience , my training,
and my own practical thought process.


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Ever stop and think
What makes you think that this is a new concept in today's LEO community?

Quote:
Also a lot of the tactical training is done by trainers with a military background.
That has always been the case since Christ wore sandals. Nothing new here in todays world. Many of my contemporaries, supervisors and trainers had Military Pedigrees, and war experiences themselves Korea, Vietnam

My own fraternal great Grandfather a decorated WWII combat vet was one of Tucson's 1st motors officers.

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Takes a while to get some of them to stop saying "over" on the radio. And some of their other habits/terminology just don't change at all
I'm not sure why you brought this up, it wasn't in my simple post.. However it's actually ia command issue; or failure of.. Dept 10 code and code protocol is there for a reason and if rank and file is not following it then command needs to correct it.

AFAIC Command failing to enforce policies and procedure to rank and file count for many of the "grossly embarrassing" and sometimes costly (taxpayer funded) settlements.

Quote:
Don't like the police arming up with military tactics?
It's not that I don't like it per se. I think it's way over used, instead of a needed resource it's PRACTICALLY used for EVERYTHING and more and more mistakes have been occurring.

Also maybe you can help me figure out why does the Department of Education need a SWAT resource.....And there are many more instances that can be discussed but this one is enough.

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Kindly ask the gangbangers to stop using AK-47s
I have an AK47 does that make me a gang-banger or a puke in your book?

Why wouldn't you consider me just to be a good law abiding 2A citizen? Of which I am. I already know the answer.

Quote:
kindly ask the crazies to stop shooting up schools and movie theaters in our cities.
AFAIC....Why wouldn't a crazy or other evil intent people choose these "free kill zones" ?

LAW ABIDING CITIZEN will keep their guns away from these "zones" because it's the law... So who's going to protect the innocents that are kept there pinned like cattle in a stockyard? Did my fellow brethren get there to save them in time?

I personally feel to my very core!! If one adult had a firearm when that kid entered Sandy Hook and got off one shot EVEN if it missed it would of been enough to turn the tide...We will never know but every Gun Free zone that is enforce only the BAD guy with EVIL intent will be armed. and responders will NEVER arrive in time to prevent it..

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We could use the time off. Those training hours take us away from our families on our days off
Yes it's quite common for the rank and file to bitch, moan and complain about training it always cuts into their private time. One of the perks of the job I guess But continued training is absolutely necessary to Law Enforcement and those who wear the blue.

I've tried to answer your questions.. Still would like to know what goes beyond the three P's in your wheel house in how you see the people you associate with.

Police, Perps, Pukes->(the citizens)

I take it you were DELTA Force in the military, long hard gig to get into. Why did you get out?
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Old 10-05-2013, 05:11 AM   #113
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Steel and Viking, I'm not going to reply to those entire rants. Its late and I'm about to go to bed. I will address a couple of issues raised.

Owning an AK-47 is a right. Which I respect. Converting it to fully auto and using it to shoot at someone because they had sex with your mom or stole some of your weed or both and then shooting at us with it when we show up and then barricading yourself inside a building....

Well that's when you become a gangbanger. And that's when we need to be well trained in CQB and armed with the proper tools.

I am sorry one of you had a bad experience with a given police department(s). That is not the way it works in the majority of the US. You have more rights and we have less "power" than anywhere else on the face of the earth. Federal Law Enforcement may be becoming vastly over reaching. But for the most part, locals are the good guys.

As to all these obscure government agencies developing SWAT teams, I don't know the specific reason. But I do know that in Katrina when the EPA and the DEQ were trying to assess the damage and help get the city back running, the gangsters were shooting at them from the rooftops.

A lot of the guys working for federal agencies are ex military. If I was combat trained and found myself as a sitting duck in a boat just trying to do my job, and I started getting shot at and had no way to defend myself, the FIRST thing id be doing when I got back to the office was convincing my boss that I needed guns and a team before I went back out. And I'd imagine that's probably pretty close to what happened.

Do I agree with it? I don't know, it seems like there might be better resources and a better solution, but the federal government is a swollen inefficient bloated beast that can't do anything in a hurry. So I can understand not wanting to depend on another department or agency to get the message that your guys need help when their lives are on the line.

Delta Force was my nickname in high school. It was also coincidentally the designation of the first narcotics interdiction team I rode with and the first squad I was ever assigned to. So Delta is my lucky letter. I have never served in the military. I started volunteering at a local police department at 12 years old. Was commissioned at 20, and have spent my entire adult life in Law Enforcement. I am obviously proud of my career, and proud of the men and women I work with.

As to your 3 Ps, when I look at someone, I only see one.

A person. Just like me. I try to always treat people the way I would want to be treated. I do my best to be fair. I try to give a guy a break when I can. If I put my hands on someone, it is because they force me to, not because I want to. Because I am a person too. And no one is going to keep me from going home at the end of my shift to see the most important people in my life. My absolutely gorgeous wife and my 2 adorable kids.

I had a nightmare the other night that something happened to me at work and I was dead, but I was stuck watching them trying to survive without me. And I kept trying to make sure that they would have money for Christmas presents this year and to hug them and tell them I was still there and I still loved them but I couldn't. It was the worse dream I've ever had in my entire life. I was actually crying when I woke up.

I will always do everything in my power to come home at the end of my shift so that my dream never comes true. Including training. Including fighting if I have to. But at the same time, I have always loved people. And I became a cop because of that genuine love for people and desire to help them.

My favorite calls aren't the balls to the walls calls. It's the ones with the little old lady who is scared and needs someone to talk to. Or the little girl who is lost and needs help finding her way back home.

And believe it or not, there are a lot of guys like me out there. We just try not to make it obvious because its just too easy for us to poke fun at each other about it.

Edit: Oh and Steele, thank you for your service. I respect everything that you did for your community and for your country.

Also, I agree, I think gun free zones are INSANE! I think that every school should have a police officer and a team of staff(teachers and coaches) that are armed and train together to protect the kids. And I think parents should be able to pack what they want and that teens should be able to bring their guns in their vehicles to school so they can go hunt before and after like I did when I was in high school and college.

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Old 10-05-2013, 05:53 AM   #114
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I think that's very well said, DeltaF.

To this thread at large. I think we should all remember that we are all on the same side, regardless of profession. Almost every single person here is pro-gun and generally a patriot. I think the snide and sarcastic comments can be kept to a minimum. Thanks.

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Old 10-05-2013, 10:13 AM   #115
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I think that's very well said, DeltaF.

To this thread at large. I think we should all remember that we are all on the same side, regardless of profession. Almost every single person here is pro-gun and generally a patriot. I think the snide and sarcastic comments can be kept to a minimum. Thanks.
Just personal EXP. Yes, I've met some LEOs I wouldn't trust further than I could throw. Yes, some abuse the "power". As a whole, I've met MUCH more honest local LEOs than dishonest, and I've certainly been cut WAY more breaks than I've been shat on by LEOs. I've had run-ins with a few dirt bags, by dirt bags I mean without the badge I would have conducted myself accordingly, but I can count those on one hand. 95% of the time I've been given respect and common courtesy.

How many here have been screwed by a mechanic, lawyer, salesman, or God forbid a politician? Probably all of us!

I don't doubt some of the negative things said here are true, but at the same time the location of a particular batch of bad local LEOs shouldn't affect LACs general outlook of all local LEOs. That's like saying because of 9-11 all Muslims are anti-American dirt bags.

As the poster I quoted said, WE are all on the same side. IMO, if you feel your local LEOs are that out of control, contact the FBI. If that doesn't solve the problem, I feel more drastic measures are warranted. I fully believe that the only way this can come true is for an ENTIRE department to become derelict in their duty.

I am in Florida, not a slave state, so I can't relate to what others in other parts of the country experience. At least here in FL the local LEOs I've dealt with have been way more than fair.
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Old 10-05-2013, 01:53 PM   #116
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As stated above the VAST majority of LE, especially at the local level, are the good guys. I have been involved with hundreds of LEO's in the last 30+ years and I would say less than 10 were BAD cops. MANY of those I know have made mistakes which does not mean they are bad cops, only human. As for the constant and continuing 'militarization' of LE, I do not agree nor support it. When I was on TEU (SWAT) we used surplus M16-A1's as our primary weapons but we still did not train as if we were 'military', we trained as cops and I yes I came from two combat tours in RVN and most of the guys on TEU had some type of military background but I did have the 'military' mindset while dealing with citizens of this country .
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Old 10-05-2013, 02:49 PM   #117
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LEOs who abuse the public trust (reckless driving, abuse of authority, etc.) and proceed to get caught on camera seem to be an ongoing problem that isn't getting better. A LOT of LE agencies seem to have a cultural problem that needs addressing. Police getting mad at the public about it is part of the problem. Don't do questionable stuff and there won't be anything for the citizenry to film, easy right?
The LE image/PR problem is mostly self inflicted. The sooner that's acknowledged, the better. Stuff like kicking in the door at the wrong address, driving their govt vehicle in an idiotic manner, abusing citizens filming an incident from their property and whatever issues make the news are not the fault of Joe Citizen. No, Law Enforcement owns the exclusive rights to those issues. That wall of silence (or whatever it's called) needs to be knocked down. All LEO's need to be held to at least the same moral and legal standard (I'd argue higher due to the oath, but that's another discussion) that they would hold a member of the general public to...particularly by other LEOs. If the police can't be trusted to police each other, why should the public expect fair and equitable treatment from them? Sounds kind of crappy I know, but that's pretty much the crux of the issue, at least for me.
I for one want to be able to see LEOs on the street and know, without thinking, that they aren't one of the many problems in this country. If a LEO has a problem with that, then, IMHO, they need to seek employment in some other field where integrity is less of an issue. Politics perhaps?
If this constitutes "Cop Bashing," to some, sorry. I don't feel it's unreasonable.

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Old 10-05-2013, 02:50 PM   #118
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Most of the incorrect door kicking that I've read about has been by the Feds.

It doesn't matter what we do, citizens will always complain.

Example: My buddy has a K9. It's the Deep South. It was 107 degrees a couple of weeks ago.

He takes the K9 into a store for something. Don't remember what. Shuts the car off.

Gets a complaint called on him by a citizen saying that he's abusing his dog it's expensive his taxes pay for those drug dogs blah blah blah because the AC isn't running and the unit says K9.

Next week, he stops to grab a quick bite to eat. Leaves the unit locked and running with the AC on. Gets a complaint called on him for running his unit while he eats. Because gas is expensive and his taxes pay for gas in that unit and blah blah blah.

This is one of the 3,000,000 (exaggeration but I could list them till you got sick of reading them) trivial and stupid complaints I've heard of.

Are there cops that mess up? Yes. About .08% of all police officers nationally had misconduct complaints filed on them in 2010. About .01% of all cops nationally were found guilty of charges related to those complaints. The total was in the 700 range out of somewhere around 700,000. I posted the stats earlier.

The large majority, the overwhelming majority of cops are guys like me who love their job because they get to help their community and keep their families safe. We are human and make mistakes. Sometimes big ones. Just like people in every other profession.

The difference is that we are hounded by the news media and members of the public anytime we make any mistake. Often times we are hounded by both when we are simply doing our jobs and have no control over the situation.

I was cussed out once for blocking off a street. The street was an exit to the subdivision. There are 5 other exits all leading to the same main highway all in a row. This particular exit street passed a military armory and was being used as a staging area for deployment to Iraq. It was blocked at the request of the US Military. The chief himself called me and told me nobody without a military ID was allowed on that street. This person didn't care. He had to drive 20 seconds out of his way (literally 100 yards farther up the same street to make the same turn onto the same main road.) and that meant his day was ruined because he couldn't do things HIS way and had to obey the authority of the city police and the US Military.

A friend of mine was grabbed by the throat by a (pretty tall and lanky) 16yo juvenile. The kid told him he was going to kill him and slammed his head into the unit. All my friend was doing was getting his ID so that he could get in touch with his parents and take him home. This was totally unprovoked. My friend was stunned and reacted by punching the juvenile in the face and yanking the kids hands off of his throat. He then put the juvenile in handcuffs and arrested him.

The local news was screaming abuse. So was half the community. We asked why he punched the kid in the face and the cop said "I don't know, he scared me, my head was hurt and it was the only thing I could think of to do at the time." Choking is considered deadly force by state law and by our office policy. The kid didn't even have a mark where the officer punched him. The officers throat had a bruise on either side of it the next day. But the way the news reported it, we were out beating the crap out of the kids.

This kindof thing happens all the time.

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Old 10-05-2013, 02:59 PM   #119
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Most of the incorrect door kicking that I've read about has been by the Feds.
Oh, well never mind, that's cool then...
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Old 10-05-2013, 03:09 PM   #120
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Well said Greg...

The attitude of a badge granting additional rights and the anger/abuse directed at citizens who catch officers pulling crap they should not be pulling is a big part of the problem.

I recognize its a minority of officers doing it but when the "good cop" next to them does nothing about the misconduct, they feed the public mistrust.

This is completely a "police" problem and if good cops wish to be respected... They must have the balls to tell the truth, especially if the truth protects the public from an abusive officer.

Personally... I have no crystal ball too tell me if a cop is going to be honest and respectful...or if he's an asshat trying to build rappor so he can insist on a "consentual" violation of my 4A rights?

So... I simply refuse to answer questions.

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Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
LEOs who abuse the public trust (reckless driving, abuse of authority, etc.) and proceed to get caught on camera seem to be an ongoing problem that isn't getting better. A LOT of LE agencies seem to have a cultural problem that needs addressing. Police getting mad at the public about it is part of the problem. Don't do questionable stuff and there won't be anything for the citizenry to film, easy right?
The LE image/PR problem is mostly self inflicted. The sooner that's acknowledged, the better. Stuff like kicking in the door at the wrong address, driving their govt vehicle in an idiotic manner, abusing citizens filming an incident from their property and whatever issues make the news are not the fault of Joe Citizen. No, Law Enforcement owns the exclusive rights to those issues. That wall of silence (or whatever it's called) needs to be knocked down. All LEO's need to be held to at least the same moral and legal standard (I'd argue higher due to the oath, but that's another discussion) that they would hold a member of the general public to...particularly by other LEOs. If the police can't be trusted to police each other, why should the public expect fair and equitable treatment from them? Sounds kind of crappy I know, but that's pretty much the crux of the issue, at least for me.
I for one want to be able to see LEOs on the street and know, without thinking, that they aren't one of the many problems in this country. If a LEO has a problem with that, then, IMHO, they need to seek employment in some other field where integrity is less of an issue. Politics perhaps?
If this constitutes "Cop Bashing," to some, sorry. I don't feel it's unreasonable.
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