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Old 05-19-2013, 02:14 AM   #211
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In any of your insurgency books that you think I need to read, was there any reference as to the level of success of an insurgency that doesn't have the support of the people?
I trust you are familiar with the American Revolution? Estimates range that anywhere from 20% to 45% of the Colonists supported the Revolution. The rest either did not (the "Loyalists") or they were on the fence, siding with the rebels after it was all over. Somewhere around 200,000 served in the Continental forces while the total population at the time was somewhere around 3.5 million.

Few Revolutions (which start with an insurgency- whether it becomes a Revolution or not depends on the success or failure of the insurgency) have the support of a majority of the people. As I have said earlier in this thread, the Civil Rights Movement did not have much support at the time, even among blacks, but that did not in any way reduce the overall success of the movement.

Read some history. Any history. The past is replete with the very examples which you are asking for.

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I find it instructive that in a rather controlled setting like a target practice range you can't get people to follow simple commands like "don't touch your firearm when people are downrange". The fellow shooting a few benches down from us today had to be told that twice in no more than a minute. The rules are posted for everyone to see- on the targets you receive and upon entering the range... And yet, something as easy to do as that was ignored repeatedly in the space of a minute.

You might think or choose to believe that everyone marching with you is a trained infantry soldier like you are. I highly doubt that that's the case. I'm sure a lot of them will share your point of view about the march, but few of them will have your life experiences.
How many people got shot at the range today? I am sorry. that is an unfair question (or at least a rhetorical one) as I know the answer. How about this one, was it apparent to you that while the safety rules were clearly posted and regularly verbalized by the RSO that the idiot who was not following them eventually will learn that he is not to touch his firearms when people are downrange? Is it apparent to you that he did not get any shots off when the range was cold? Did you not see post #132?

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Serious question here. I know that everybody here is concerned about "that one nut job", but seriously, what about all of those gun owners who are right there beside him? Do you really think that anybody in that crowd would be able to get a shot off without getting his gun taken away by his companions first? I have taken guns away from people because they were being unsafe before, and I will probably do it again (though I hope not).
I do not tolerate unsafe behavior with firearms. Do you?
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- Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:23 AM   #212
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Only about 5 to 7% of Americans actually engaged in Americas first Civil War of 1776. The only time they engaged in useless and costly exposure was during the Boston Riots. I would hope todays patriots would follow their examples.

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Old 05-19-2013, 02:37 AM   #213
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Only about 5 to 7% of Americans actually engaged in Americas first Civil War of 1776. The only time they engaged in useless and costly exposure was during the Boston Riots. I would hope todays patriots would follow their examples.
I am afraid that you will have to clarify. Do you mean by "engaged" to say that they took up arms and fought the British? Because that is pretty much what I said but with no clarification on your part.

Also, by the "Boston Riots", do you mean the Boston Tea Party? (which was indeed expensive but it was hardly "useless".) Or do you mean the Siege of Boston, which was also costly but again it was not "useless".

I believe this proposed protest to be a worthy one that may evolve into a useful and effective event.
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- Mohandas Gandhi, an Autobiography, page 446.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:14 AM   #214
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I trust you are familiar with the American Revolution? Estimates range that anywhere from 20% to 45% of the Colonists supported the Revolution. The rest either did not (the "Loyalists") or they were on the fence, siding with the rebels after it was all over. Somewhere around 200,000 served in the Continental forces while the total population at the time was somewhere around 3.5 million.

Few Revolutions (which start with an insurgency- whether it becomes a Revolution or not depends on the success or failure of the insurgency) have the support of a majority of the people. As I have said earlier in this thread, the Civil Rights Movement did not have much support at the time, even among blacks, but that did not in any way reduce the overall success of the movement.

Read some history. Any history. The past is replete with the very examples which you are asking for.



How many people got shot at the range today? I am sorry. that is an unfair question (or at least a rhetorical one) as I know the answer. How about this one, was it apparent to you that while the safety rules were clearly posted and regularly verbalized by the RSO that the idiot who was not following them eventually will learn that he is not to touch his firearms when people are downrange? Is it apparent to you that he did not get any shots off when the range was cold? Did you not see post #132?



I do not tolerate unsafe behavior with firearms. Do you?
I guess it's a darn good thing we know with such certainty how many people supported the American Revolution. I guess a certain percentage of them were happy to pay more taxes to a foreign occupying government that they travelled across an ocean to escape from.

I sincerely doubt a few thousand protesters in DC are going to spark a revolution or surely there would have been one following the civil rights movement, which wasn't about what objects one could or could not carry with them on a daily basis.

I find the history lessons intriguing, but I had about 14 years of American history from my father (an American history and English teacher, among other things).

Thankfully, nobody got shot at the range. The range officer was right on top of the guy fondling his rifle when he did it- twice. Are there going to be range safety officers at the DC march?

Define tolerate. Do you take firearms away from people who handle them in an unsafe manner or report them to the police?
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:28 AM   #215
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I'm impressed with your 7 paragraph resonse...

Could have saved yourself... and the rest of us A LOT of time by simply saying... "Yes Tack, I suffer from Transferance"

Tack




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Great Tack, my grandfather was in the 2nd Marine Division. I'm pretty sure he was in favor of dropping the bomb, too. "I couldn't believe it. There was just pea sized gravel... everywhere... and nothing over a foot high or so." That's all he ever said to me about it. How many civilians do you suppose were killed? Because they didn't drop the bombs on military bases.

In any of your insurgency books that you think I need to read, was there any reference as to the level of success of an insurgency that doesn't have the support of the people?

In one of your posts in this thread you made reference to the fact that you saw the march as a thinly disguised threat and you were kinda hoping that there would be an overreaction on the part of the government to the armed protest. I think you're the one who has a maturity problem, which is probably why you feel the need to question the maturity of other people who disagree with you.

Bin Laden's dead and buried, Tack. How long it took isn't all that relevant. I guess you could dispute it since we haven't seen the body, but I'm pretty sure they're not lying about it. The fact is, they killed a foreign national in a country we were not at war with (stated, de-facto, or otherwise) in what amounted to an act of war, against Pakistan, and they actually do it on a regular basis (normally with drones but with Navy SEAL's in that particular case). Do you think they won't kill you because you're an American? All they have to do is label you a terrorist and then you're not treated like an American anymore. That bothers me a lot more than carrying or not carrying a rifle with me everywhere.

Tack, I'm sure you're a regular airborne sniper tactical operator who knows more about guns than all the rest of us stupid peons who disagree with you. You feel the need to question our sanity/maturity/intelligence or point out that we didn't have your job and that kinda makes me think you're either insecure with respect to your opinion and want validation from other people or you can't take any criticism because you don't like the message or the messenger. That said, I find it odd that someone who is obviously so much more knowledgeable about human behavior with respect to firearms can't imagine or chooses to remain willfully ignorant (stupid) to the possibility that someone else might not have your level of expertise and training with firearms and might just be the man standing next to you if you decide to go on that march.

I find it instructive that in a rather controlled setting like a target practice range you can't get people to follow simple commands like "don't touch your firearm when people are downrange". The fellow shooting a few benches down from us today had to be told that twice in no more than a minute. The rules are posted for everyone to see- on the targets you receive and upon entering the range... And yet, something as easy to do as that was ignored repeatedly in the space of a minute.

You might think or choose to believe that everyone marching with you is a trained infantry soldier like you are. I highly doubt that that's the case. I'm sure a lot of them will share your point of view about the march, but few of them will have your life experiences.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:32 AM   #216
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So....

Kokesh has apparently just been arrested at a pot smoking rally or something....

HE IS, BY FAR, NOT THE PERSON WE NEED LEADING SUCH AN EVENT.
Here is the video:


Add this to the information:

http://michellemalkin.com/2010/03/10/adam-kokesh-an-anti-war-smear-merchant-in-republican-clothing/
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:40 AM   #217
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Are there going to be range safety officers at the DC march?

Define tolerate. Do you take firearms away from people who handle them in an unsafe manner or report them to the police?
If I decide to march... There will be at least one RSO present.

...and if a shooter can't follow the rules, we invite the to leave, if they don't leave, we trespass them and call the Sheriff. It's REALY not that tough... Only need to make an example of 1... and the rest fall in line.

Tack
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:50 AM   #218
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I'm impressed with your 7 paragraph resonse...

Could have saved yourself... and the rest of us A LOT of time by simply saying... "Yes Tack, I suffer from Transferance"

Tack
Tack,

I just think it's an incredibly ill-advised and more likely than not counter-productive course of action, which I've stated seven ways from Sunday.

It's great that you are so sure of yourself. I like that about you. I have my doubts, which is what I'm expressing to you.

You continue to promote your point of view on the DC march and I'll continue to promote mine.
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Old 05-19-2013, 03:54 AM   #219
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Viking Dad the Boston Riot or Massacre is a well known American preparatory conflict of the American Revolution.


http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h644.html

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Old 05-19-2013, 04:05 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
I guess it's a darn good thing we know with such certainty how many people supported the American Revolution. I guess a certain percentage of them were happy to pay more taxes to a foreign occupying government that they travelled across an ocean to escape from.

I sincerely doubt a few thousand protesters in DC are going to spark a revolution or surely there would have been one following the civil rights movement, which wasn't about what objects one could or could not carry with them on a daily basis.

I find the history lessons intriguing, but I had about 14 years of American history from my father (an American history and English teacher, among other things).

Thankfully, nobody got shot at the range. The range officer was right on top of the guy fondling his rifle when he did it- twice. Are there going to be range safety officers at the DC march?

Define tolerate. Do you take firearms away from people who handle them in an unsafe manner or report them to the police?
Your question to Tack was regarding insurgencies and the support they had "among the people".
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In any of your insurgency books that you think I need to read, was there any reference as to the level of success of an insurgency that doesn't have the support of the people?
And my response was to point out that the American Insurgency (before it became a full-blown Revolution) did not have a majority of support among the Colonists. The spread I gave illustrates the effects that History has on the facts. Verifiable facts are not available, so it is safer to provide a range. So, given that 'fact', lets say that the Colonists were evenly split, 1/3 each way after July 4th 1776. Before July 4th 1776 (or the insurgency) the number of Colonists supporting the idea of declaring independence was very likely a much lower one.

Speaking for myself I am not talking of sparking an insurgency, or a revolution. I am merely talking of having a peaceful and effective act of Civil Disobedience that will hopefully lead to a restoration of our Constitutionally protected Second Amendment civil right. And, for the record, firearms were used by the Black Panthers as a tool to push forward their agenda in the 1960's and 1970's. The result was some success on the civil rights side, but we lost on the Second Amendment side and the NRA at the time helped to write the federal gun control legislation that resulted from those actions on the part of the Black Panthers.

I do not see your logic in saying that "following the civil rights movement, which wasn't about what objects one could or could not carry with them on a daily basis.", as it was about civil rights, including where people could eat, drink, ride on the bus, live, go to school, and even own and carry firearms in many cases.

I have personally taken firearms away from people who are handling them in an unsafe manner. I have not (and have never had the inclination to) called the police. That is not to say that I never will. If, in the unlikely event that it should happen, a person were to appear as though they were going to discharge their weapon during a protest such as the proposed one in my presence I would do everything in my power to stop them and I would probably not turn them in to authorities.

But I digress from the conversation by replying to your attacks. Can we get back to planning?
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