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Old 09-21-2007, 09:43 AM   #11
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I don't know Ron Paul's 9/11 stance but I'm curious to why you brought it up. What do you think about the theory the Government had knowledge it was going to happen?
I believe they knew it was possibly going to happen in the same way they believe today that nukes will be set off in U.S. cities by AQ sometime, or that soft targets like schools and malls will be hit simultaneously.

In other words, it is a distinct possibility with no specific information about when, where or who.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:56 AM   #12
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That is the conspiracy theorists talking and the media is eating their crap up. Dr. Paul is for a non-interventionist foreign policy as did the Founding Fathers. He is for armed neutrality, sorta like T.R. Roosevelt's Big Stick policy.
What does "non-interventionist" mean, exactly? Don't interfere in the internal goings-on of a foreign government? Don't put up Starbucks or McDonalds in foreign countries? Don't protect U.S. interests in remote lands? What if doing some of these things benefits Americans at home as well as those living in the foreign countries?

The general principle of "keep your hands to yourself" is a valid and good one. But every now and then, we may need to take some action of some sort off U.S. soil.

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Dr. Paul believes, and this is well documented by his speeches, that the blowback principle was responsible for the attacks on 9/11. This has been confirmed by the CIA and the 9/11 Commission.
If by "blowback" you mean a predictable reaction by foreigners who are sick of American interference and intervention around the world, in this case, I have to disagree, the 9/11 Commission's and CIA's esteemed opinions notwithstanding.

I've spent the last couple years studying the history of Islam and nations which are considered "islamic". The propensity to attack anyone that appears weak is a very common theme, and the U.S. appeared weak in 2001 after our failures to respond to the '93 WTC bombing, the Khobar Towers bombing, the USS Cole bombing and more. Clinton's screw-up with Somalia didn't put our military in the best light.

Bin Laden's ever-changing complaints aside, the 9/11/01 attacks had precious little to do with American presence overseas.

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Dr. Paul is 100% for the US Constitution in its original intent. In addition, he gets a score of A+ from Gun Owners of America.
No problem there!
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Old 09-21-2007, 10:53 AM   #13
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What does "non-interventionist" mean, exactly? Don't interfere in the internal goings-on of a foreign government? Don't put up Starbucks or McDonalds in foreign countries? Don't protect U.S. interests in remote lands? What if doing some of these things benefits Americans at home as well as those living in the foreign countries?

The general principle of "keep your hands to yourself" is a valid and good one. But every now and then, we may need to take some action of some sort off U.S. soil.
Nobody said that the USA has to roll over and play dead but remember this...

“Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson

“America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standards of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.” – John Quincy Adams, 4th of July Address 1821

“It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.” -- George Washington

These guys knew what they were talking about because they studied other cultures, particularly Greece and Rome, and saw what happened to them.

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If by "blowback" you mean a predictable reaction by foreigners who are sick of American interference and intervention around the world, in this case, I have to disagree, the 9/11 Commission's and CIA's esteemed opinions notwithstanding.
So, if the USA was invaded, you would just go back to watching American Idol.

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I've spent the last couple years studying the history of Islam and nations which are considered "islamic". The propensity to attack anyone that appears weak is a very common theme, and the U.S. appeared weak in 2001 after our failures to respond to the '93 WTC bombing, the Khobar Towers bombing, the USS Cole bombing and more. Clinton's screw-up with Somalia didn't put our military in the best light.

Bin Laden's ever-changing complaints aside, the 9/11/01 attacks had precious little to do with American presence overseas.
So, why haven't the Islamists attacked Switzerland or Belize or Mongolia? They are relatively weak. They attacked us because we support Israel and have had our noses in the Middle East since World War I. If anything, we should be pissed off at the British for stirring up that hornets nest.

Now we can get back to the issue at hand - the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.
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Old 09-21-2007, 03:02 PM   #14
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Chuck, you should run for 'public office'. You know your stuff and say it well.

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Old 09-21-2007, 07:41 PM   #15
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Nobody said that the USA has to roll over and play dead but remember this...

“Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations – entangling alliances with none." ~ Thomas Jefferson

“America goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standards of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.” – John Quincy Adams, 4th of July Address 1821

“It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.” -- George Washington

These guys knew what they were talking about because they studied other cultures, particularly Greece and Rome, and saw what happened to them.
It would be nice to work toward that, but because we are entangled with other nations an abrupt cessation of existing relations would not be good. Would you advocate immediate pseudo-isolationism with regard to Israel and other allies?

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If by "blowback" you mean a predictable reaction by foreigners who are sick of American interference and intervention around the world, in this case, I have to disagree, the 9/11 Commission's and CIA's esteemed opinions notwithstanding.
So, if the USA was invaded, you would just go back to watching American Idol.
I find that grossly offensive, sir. I am in no way an apathetic, drooling idiot devoid of knowledge of current events. I deeply respect the Constitution and would like to see a return to small government and a reigning in of scope and power of government at all levels.

The assertion by some that our government had specific foreknowledge of 9/11 and/or executed it is, IMO, absurd. Hence my question on Paul. The assertion that 9/11 was due to U.S. interventionism throughout the world is equally wrong.

The events of 9/11 were brought about by power-hungry thugs exploiting a violent ideology to strike at an enemy.

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I've spent the last couple years studying the history of Islam and nations which are considered "islamic". The propensity to attack anyone that appears weak is a very common theme, and the U.S. appeared weak in 2001 after our failures to respond to the '93 WTC bombing, the Khobar Towers bombing, the USS Cole bombing and more. Clinton's screw-up with Somalia didn't put our military in the best light.

Bin Laden's ever-changing complaints aside, the 9/11/01 attacks had precious little to do with American presence overseas.
So, why haven't the Islamists attacked Switzerland or Belize or Mongolia
I invite you to explore The Religion of Peace and see the myriad locales they have attacked. You might find it eye-opening just how many place do get hit. Belize, Mongolia and Switzerland may not appear frequently. Neither do the polar regions or large swaths along the Amazon.

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They are relatively weak. They attacked us because we support Israel and have had our noses in the Middle East since World War I. If anything, we should be pissed off at the British for stirring up that hornets nest.
May I conclude you are anti-Zionist, then?

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Now we can get back to the issue at hand - the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution.
You have my sincere apology for taking this thread off course.
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Old 09-21-2007, 08:59 PM   #16
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Chuck, you should run for 'public office'. You know your stuff and say it well.
Thanks but I'm too trustworthy.


...and I haven't had my vaccinations.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:15 PM   #17
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It would be nice to work toward that, but because we are entangled with other nations an abrupt cessation of existing relations would not be good. Would you advocate immediate pseudo-isolationism with regard to Israel and other allies?
When it comes to American sovereignty - in a second.


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I find that grossly offensive, sir. I am in no way an apathetic, drooling idiot devoid of knowledge of current events. I deeply respect the Constitution and would like to see a return to small government and a reigning in of scope and power of government at all levels.
It wasn't directed specifically at you but the US citizenry in general. If you want to see a return to limited government, there is only one candidate that will do it. The others are simply taking the talk.

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The assertion by some that our government had specific foreknowledge of 9/11 and/or executed it is, IMO, absurd. Hence my question on Paul. The assertion that 9/11 was due to U.S. interventionism throughout the world is equally wrong.

The events of 9/11 were brought about by power-hungry thugs exploiting a violent ideology to strike at an enemy.
I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theories. I do, however, subscribe to well established history. Do you remember the 80s movie "Red Dawn"? If that scenario actually happened in the United States, don't you think that most people would react to an invasion? Actually, who knows these days. Most would probably cry out for the government to come to their collective rescue. That scenario is what is happening over there. Our system of government was founded on the principle of liberty and self-determination. Let the rest of the world "self-determine".

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I invite you to explore The Religion of Peace and see the myriad locales they have attacked. You might find it eye-opening just how many place do get hit. Belize, Mongolia and Switzerland may not appear frequently. Neither do the polar regions or large swaths along the Amazon.
Nobody is denying that Islam does not have a history of violence. Most cultures do.

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May I conclude you are anti-Zionist, then?
Not specifically. I am anti-everyone who has influence in the American political process, not just the Israelis, but the Europeans, the Arab nations,China, and anybody else. AIPAC is one of the strongest lobbying organziations in Washington and they are not all Jewish. Cheney speaks at their conventions regularly.


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You have my sincere apology for taking this thread off course.
No problem.
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Old 09-21-2007, 10:47 PM   #18
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Nobody is denying that Islam does not have a history of violence. Most cultures do.
No other so-called culture comes even close to paralleling Islam. Having a distant history of violence is one thing. Having a 1,200+ year history of uninterrupted violence is quite another.

So where do you stand with the likes of Hillary and other proto-communists and those who would follow them blindly? You've said you're willing to leave foreign friends to their own devices, which may mean their demise. How would you treat domestic enemies? One would hope you would treat them more harshly than our friends.

One more question: Why do you think Dr. Paul, as President, would have such significant influence? What if we had a Congress like we do today; would he not suffer the similar ignominious charges as Bush does today? How would he be effective at cutting through that crap?
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:00 PM   #19
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No other so-called culture comes even close to paralleling Islam. Having a distant history of violence is one thing. Having a 1,200+ year history of uninterrupted violence is quite another.
Maybe you'd better brush up on some European history.

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So where do you stand with the likes of Hillary and other proto-communists and those who would follow them blindly? You've said you're willing to leave foreign friends to their own devices, which may mean their demise. How would you treat domestic enemies? One would hope you would treat them more harshly than our friends.

One more question: Why do you think Dr. Paul, as President, would have such significant influence? What if we had a Congress like we do today; would he not suffer the similar ignominious charges as Bush does today? How would he be effective at cutting through that crap?
My stand with Hillary is that she and the Democrats are one and the same with the Republicans. With the exception of a few social issues, the two parties are identical. Those social issues, like abortion, are used constantly to divide and conquer the populace.

As for our "friends", remember this. "Nations don't have friends. Nations have interests." -- Winston Churchill. Take care of Number One for a change. In additioni, I would treat domestic enemies with the rule of law.

Finally, for Dr. Paul, he would be more successful than you think. How would you like to be one of the Congresscritters being embarrassed in public for not upholding your oath to the Constitution? That is what will happen with Paul in office. On the other hand, the general population is too damn dumb to understand the proper role of government.

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State." -- James Madison, Federalist No. 45
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:17 PM   #20
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H.R.1096 : To restore the second amendment rights of all Americans.
Sponsor: Rep Paul, Ron [TX-14] (introduced 2/15/2007) Cosponsors (None)
Committees: House Judiciary; House Ways and Means

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Second Amendment Protection Act of 2007'.
SEC. 2. REPEAL OF 1993 LAW PROVIDING FOR A WAITING PERIOD BEFORE THE PURCHASE OF A HANDGUN, AND THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A NATIONAL INSTANT CRIMINAL BACKGROUND CHECK SYSTEM TO BE CONTACTED BY FIREARMS DEALERS BEFORE THE TRANSFER OF ANY FIREARM.

SEC. 3. ELIMINATION OF SPORTING PURPOSES DISTINCTION.

SEC. 4. REPEAL OF THE CHILD SAFETY LOCK ACT OF 2005.

SEC. 5. EFFECTIVE DATE.

The provisions of this Act shall take effect immediately upon enactment.
In addition, Dr. Paul has voted...
  • Ease procedures on the purchase and registration of firearms. (Nov 1996)
  • Allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms. (Nov 1996)
  • Voted NO on prohibiting product misuse lawsuits on gun manufacturers. (Oct 2005)
  • Voted NO on prohibiting suing gunmakers & sellers for gun misuse. (Apr 2003)
  • Voted NO on decreasing gun waiting period from 3 days to 1. (Jun 1999)
  • Support the Second Amendment . (Dec 2000)

Rated A by the NRA, indicating a pro-gun rights voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rate A+ by Gun Owners of America
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