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Old 08-25-2013, 03:35 AM   #71
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just a quick note to add to the debate...

most brain experts agree the human frontal lobe is not fully developed until the late teens to early twenties....that's BRAIN NOT DEVELOPED.

i think it was the mid twenties for me....

but its the reason teens and early adults can be as smart as rocket scientists while simultaneously doing some of the stupidest things known to mankind.

i prefer 19 or 20 as a age for most all it....guns, military, drinking, etc.....

most are still in HS at 18......most with an underdeveloped frontal lobe

proceed.....

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Old 08-25-2013, 03:41 AM   #72
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just a quick note to add to the debate...

most brain experts agree the human frontal lobe is not fully developed until the late teens to early twenties....that's BRAIN NOT DEVELOPED.

i think it was the mid twenties for me....

but its the reason teens and early adults can be as smart as rocket scientists while simultaneously doing some of the stupidest things known to mankind.

i prefer 19 or 20 as a age for most all it....guns, military, drinking, etc.....

most are still in HS at 18......most with an underdeveloped frontal lobe

proceed.....
i can see that. but in all fairness, they should not be allowed to be drafted until such as the same age as to enjoy the benefits of being and adult.

i just don't see it being fair that a young man can join the military and possibly die in service for his country but can't walk into a bar and have a beer. that IMO is wrong.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:45 AM   #73
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i can see that. but in all fairness, they should not be allowed to be drafted until such as the same age as to enjoy the benefits of being and adult.

i just don't see it being fair that a young man can join the military and possibly die in service for his country but can't walk into a bar and have a beer. that IMO is wrong.
100% agree....raise the age for military...or lower it for beer...OR just do the smart thing and offer a military exemption....least we can do for young ladies and gentlemen who serve our country.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:00 AM   #74
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100% agree....raise the age for military...or lower it for beer...OR just do the smart thing and offer a military exemption....least we can do for young ladies and gentlemen who serve our country.
very true. i believe in things being fair and the age limits on different things are not what i see being fair for many of those at that age.
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Old 08-25-2013, 05:23 AM   #75
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The military doesn't want people with fully developed brains. It's more difficult to train them. More difficult to convince them they are invincible. More difficult to talk them into walking into harms way. They don't want to teach old dogs new tricks. They want fresh young pups that can be molded into what the brass wants.

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Old 08-25-2013, 10:29 AM   #76
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My wife was always saying "She's not old enough" when it came to our youngest daughters seemingly arrested responsibility development; well, shes still screwed up at 32, is that old enough yet to say grow the F up or maybe 40? For 10,000 years, we have seen clear evidence that humans are capable of nearly all things much earlier in life than todays parents want to admit. Our cortex may still be maturing for some time but that doesnt mean we arent fully capable, just not fully developed. Our ears and nose grow until we die but are fully functional by the time our eyes open, teaching them the moment they are capable of understanding is the responsible thing to do!

I guess when it comes to age, Im still holding at 16 as the age most children are capable of becoming an adult. Its only been over the last <75 years that humans have lived to the ripe old age of 60+ as a norm. In our prior extensive history; people fought in wars, got married, got jobs and had children often before they were 16 and were considered elder if they made it to 50. Add to that most humans are capable of spawning young at 11 to 14 years old and my sense is, by 16, you have physically matured far enough to be considered emancipated if youve been given the training to make it on your own. That doesnt mean we will act like adults just because were 16, 18 or 34, just means if given the right background and info young, were able to be an adult with all the rights and responsibilities at age 16.

Human development cognizance is so much older than our current new enlightenment viewpoints gives credit to. We the parents not mother nature have altered the reality of childhood and adult maturation; after all, who doesnt want to be "forever Young"? We hate to see our fledglings take flight and will do anything to keep them in the nest including stunting them via rules and notions that arent based on facts, only feelings.

Identical twins dont mature at the same rate, making an age of transition law only recognizes the preponderance of folks are expected to be ready for adulthood. We all know 50 year old kids that never grew up and 14 year olds that act more adult than their parents so picking any age isnt perfect no matter which one you choose. In the USA today, a kid has no less than 8 transition ages that only go to confuse everyone from age 12 to 27. Then we add a few after 27 to tell us that were old and ancient. Mostly pigeon holed into age appropriate cubicles that are human law not human nature.

So back to where this thread sorta started "the 2a Debate" with the addition of "When is a human entrusted to own all the rights that they are endowed with by nature of being a citizen"? Parents and Guardians are the keeper of the keys and the arbitrators of passage, only they know when their kids arent just kids anymore. They have the ultimate responsibility for preparing those kids to be adults as soon as they are able to process the basis for those steps. Failure to do so isnt generally the kids fault (although it is their problem) or in the governments purview to delegate to the courts unless extreme circumstances illuminate the obvious need for intervention.

Age is a beancounters tool not an indicator of anything by itself. Living many crop cycles doesnt ensure maturity any more than living fewer prevent one from becoming mature.

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Old 08-25-2013, 12:06 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by texaswoodworker

I can pass them too, and it has never taken more then about 5 minutes to do one, but I still see it as a pointless law that could easily be misused by the Government and that is a violation of my right. If I want to walk into the corner hardware store and pick up an M249 without paperwork, I should be able to.

While under the custody of someone, you don't have full rights. A child can't buy a gun unless the parent buy it for them. An incarcerated criminal can't buy a gun.

For the mentally ill, if they are dangerous enough that they shouldn't have a gun, the need to be in some kind of custody. Whether it be family or state.

As for the 21 for handguns thing, I believe once you turn 18, you should be able to buy any gun you want, drink, and smoke. If your old enough to die for your country, your old enough for that other stuff.
Have to be careful with the if your old enough to die for your country part. I agree with the notion but there are a hell of a lot of 18 year olds I have seen and or met that I wouldn't trust with a pair of safety scissors let alone a firearm. Keep in mind my son joined the navy at 17 and is currently a MA over in Bahrain. But he has also had a steady dose of right and wrong from me.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:03 PM   #78
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Have to be careful with the if your old enough to die for your country part. I agree with the notion but there are a hell of a lot of 18 year olds I have seen and or met that I wouldn't trust with a pair of safety scissors let alone a firearm. Keep in mind my son joined the navy at 17 and is currently a MA over in Bahrain. But he has also had a steady dose of right and wrong from me.
i can agree for the most part. much of that maturity IMO, does come from the environment or the teachings of the parents, or lack of in some cases. i have seen young men at 15 and 16 that were very mature and i have seen some at 30 that weren't. i think lots of factors play into how developed the maturity level is attained in the young now.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:47 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by WebleyFosbery38 View Post
My wife was always saying "She's not old enough" when it came to our youngest daughters seemingly arrested responsibility development; well, shes still screwed up at 32, is that old enough yet to say grow the F up or maybe 40? For 10,000 years, we have seen clear evidence that humans are capable of nearly all things much earlier in life than todays parents want to admit. Our cortex may still be maturing for some time but that doesnt mean we arent fully capable, just not fully developed. Our ears and nose grow until we die but are fully functional by the time our eyes open, teaching them the moment they are capable of understanding is the responsible thing to do!

I guess when it comes to age, Im still holding at 16 as the age most children are capable of becoming an adult. Its only been over the last <75 years that humans have lived to the ripe old age of 60+ as a norm. In our prior extensive history; people fought in wars, got married, got jobs and had children often before they were 16 and were considered elder if they made it to 50. Add to that most humans are capable of spawning young at 11 to 14 years old and my sense is, by 16, you have physically matured far enough to be considered emancipated if youve been given the training to make it on your own. That doesnt mean we will act like adults just because were 16, 18 or 34, just means if given the right background and info young, were able to be an adult with all the rights and responsibilities at age 16.

Human development cognizance is so much older than our current new enlightenment viewpoints gives credit to. We the parents not mother nature have altered the reality of childhood and adult maturation; after all, who doesnt want to be "forever Young"? We hate to see our fledglings take flight and will do anything to keep them in the nest including stunting them via rules and notions that arent based on facts, only feelings.

Identical twins dont mature at the same rate, making an age of transition law only recognizes the preponderance of folks are expected to be ready for adulthood. We all know 50 year old kids that never grew up and 14 year olds that act more adult than their parents so picking any age isnt perfect no matter which one you choose. In the USA today, a kid has no less than 8 transition ages that only go to confuse everyone from age 12 to 27. Then we add a few after 27 to tell us that were old and ancient. Mostly pigeon holed into age appropriate cubicles that are human law not human nature.

So back to where this thread sorta started "the 2a Debate" with the addition of "When is a human entrusted to own all the rights that they are endowed with by nature of being a citizen"? Parents and Guardians are the keeper of the keys and the arbitrators of passage, only they know when their kids arent just kids anymore. They have the ultimate responsibility for preparing those kids to be adults as soon as they are able to process the basis for those steps. Failure to do so isnt generally the kids fault (although it is their problem) or in the governments purview to delegate to the courts unless extreme circumstances illuminate the obvious need for intervention.

Age is a beancounters tool not an indicator of anything by itself. Living many crop cycles doesnt ensure maturity any more than living fewer prevent one from becoming mature.
our brain was developed as a survival tool and that is still its basic function. i'm not justifying at any point that teens and early adults are not responsible for their actions....i'm just saying an undeveloped brain should be considered with certain rights of passage...and as much as i agree with about parents raising and monitoring their children's maturity....that just sadly isn't happening enough, so some filters need be in place.

if anything, i can see phyical maturity as happening much sooner than cognitive. kids become physically able before they make the best choices imo. i mean a teen can certainly spear a animal effectively at 13 years old (thius the reason rights of passage were once much younger)...but take control of their own life in this complex world? ....not ready yet imo.

as for rate of maturity...i think sometimes it is getting worse for kids as well. my kinder experience was coloring, sharing, naps and recess...my kids kinder is have to read before first, no naps, learn responsibility, no huggging, etc etc.....something to think about....
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:09 PM   #80
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Just my 2 cents worth, "I did not know the Second Amendment was debatable."

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