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Old 01-26-2012, 12:56 AM   #21
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"They are also known for having to be kept miraculously clean..." ??? You really, really need to google "Filthy 14"!

Nothing wrong with the Mini, I wouldn't mind having one but why do so many Mini fans keep repeating untruths about the AR?
Thats a Bravo Company AR, its a step above in the world of AR's. I have had the opportunity put a few hundred rounds through a couple of Bravo Company's offerings and they are nice rifles and like most all AR's they like to be run wet, but run they do.
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:41 PM   #22
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The new credo in the AR world has shifted from how well it will run, to how well it will run when dirty. The latest sales gimmick with BCM and this whole "Filthy 14" plays that out about as well as can be said.

Some time ago it was discovered that it was better to run an AR-15 platform rifle wet with lubricant. Very wet. The wetter the better. As Larry Vickers calls out in his classes, "Run that bitch WET!" From there it went into how dirty they could get it, and still have it run. As they ran it dirty, or "filthy", (In Pat Rogers, BCM lingo), they discovered if they kept it dripping wet with lubricant they could go thousands of rounds, because the dirt would not stick very well to the heavily lubricated surfaces.

What they in fact discovered was what housewives have known for decades. That is dirty, crusty stuff does not like to stick to hot oily surfaces as easily as it does to hot dry ones. Kitchen knowledge has basically transferred to the firing line.

Before DuPont gave us the wonders of Teflon, women used Crisco and Butter like it was going out of style to keep food from sticking to hot dishes and pans. Today AR-15 manufacturers soak their weapons with Slip 2000 EWL, (or whatever the lube of the week happens to be in the AR world), and run them for thousands of rounds without cleaning them, in an attempt to run them longer than the next guy. Stopping every so often to wet them down so the bad stuff that used to cause them to finally quit running, simply blows out the ejection port instead.

They then carefully package this like a Sunday morning Infomercial in an attempt to sell their rifles. Much like BCM has done with their whole "Filthy 14" campaign. It works too. Now the focus in the AR-15 world has shifted from how well it runs, to how long it can run. As always dollar signs drive this far more than any practical application. Who in their right mind is going to try to run a $1,000.00 weapon 31,000 rounds, (BCM), or 10,000 rounds (DPMS), without cleaning it? I guess it would be the same guy who would drive his nice new $50,000.00 truck 40,000 miles without changing the oil. Just stopping regularly to "top it off".

In the real world these tests mean nothing because they are stupid and impractical, and are done purely as a sales gimmick. Also, much like the Sunday morning oil additive Infomercial, they NEVER do a side by side comparison. It is always their product, and their product alone in the test.

Doesn't anyone wonder why BCM and Rogers didn't run their "Filthy 14" side by side with a Daniel Defense, a Colt, or a Bushmaster? The reason is obvious. Any other AR-15 under the exact same conditions, being regularly soaked with the exact same amount of lubricant, would have performed the exact same way.

Just like when they drain the Duralube treated motor oil out of the engine, and run it for 20 minutes with a dry crankcase, they don't have an identical non Duralube treated engine running the exact same way. In all likelihood it would have ran just as long.

With so many manufacturers producing so many AR-15 style rifles, this is what it has come down to try and sell them. Just like Duralube, the shelves are full of like products, so they need to do something different to make theirs stand out. Both BCM and Duralube are thriving as a result, simply because people buy into the gimmick.

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Old 02-20-2012, 05:00 PM   #23
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And furthermore, The Mini-14 will run for thousands of rounds without cleaning, or getting her "wet".

I shoot both. When I sit down and put 20-30 rounds down range with the AR, my hands are covered in soot, powder and grime. That's simply from pulling the trigger.
I can shoot my Mini-14 all day and never even feel compelled to wash my hands. The same gases come out of both rifles. Ruger ,and the designers of the original M1a/M14 types, were smart enough to put the discharge in the fore-end, away from the inner workings of the rifle and away from me. Sometimes, the better solution is just obvious.

What does the AR have that I would like on my Mini-14? A box magazine that pushes straight in. The aftermarket has already delivered matching versatility in the furniture.

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Old 02-20-2012, 11:45 PM   #24
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I shoot both. When I sit down and put 20-30 rounds down range with the AR, my hands are covered in soot, powder and grime. That's simply from pulling the trigger.
ive had days where ive put a thousand or more downrange through my ar15s. never had dirty hands much less fail to feed or extract.

i dont do anything special. just clp as a base lube/preservative on all my guns. i use motor oil if its going to be a long range session.

running a gun that is too wet or too dry regardless of make is foolish. dumping oil into an action is equally foolish. proper use of lube and grease is key to longterm reliability and longevity of your firearms. whether its a colt ar15 or ruger mini14 or ak47 from china, you abuse it by running it dry you accelerate wear and tear. meaning your going to break your pricey toy sooner than it needs to.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:52 PM   #25
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ive had days where ive put a thousand or more downrange through my ar15s. never had dirty hands much less fail to feed or extract.
I was kinda thinking the same thing , I just ran 230 rds thru my newest AR , no gloves on and my hands werent covered in anything ? I ran cheapo russian ammo thru it and it wasnt even really bad in the gun so Im a little confused myself
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:16 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by billt
The new credo in the AR world has shifted from how well it will run, to how well it will run when dirty. The latest sales gimmick with BCM and this whole "Filthy 14" plays that out about as well as can be said.

Some time ago it was discovered that it was better to run an AR-15 platform rifle wet with lubricant. Very wet. The wetter the better. As Larry Vickers calls out in his classes, "Run that bitch WET!" From there it went into how dirty they could get it, and still have it run. As they ran it dirty, or "filthy", (In Pat Rogers, BCM lingo), they discovered if they kept it dripping wet with lubricant they could go thousands of rounds, because the dirt would not stick very well to the heavily lubricated surfaces.

What they in fact discovered was what housewives have known for decades. That is dirty, crusty stuff does not like to stick to hot oily surfaces as easily as it does to hot dry ones. Kitchen knowledge has basically transferred to the firing line.

Before DuPont gave us the wonders of Teflon, women used Crisco and Butter like it was going out of style to keep food from sticking to hot dishes and pans. Today AR-15 manufacturers soak their weapons with Slip 2000 EWL, (or whatever the lube of the week happens to be in the AR world), and run them for thousands of rounds without cleaning them, in an attempt to run them longer than the next guy. Stopping every so often to wet them down so the bad stuff that used to cause them to finally quit running, simply blows out the ejection port instead.

They then carefully package this like a Sunday morning Infomercial in an attempt to sell their rifles. Much like BCM has done with their whole "Filthy 14" campaign. It works too. Now the focus in the AR-15 world has shifted from how well it runs, to how long it can run. As always dollar signs drive this far more than any practical application. Who in their right mind is going to try to run a $1,000.00 weapon 31,000 rounds, (BCM), or 10,000 rounds (DPMS), without cleaning it? I guess it would be the same guy who would drive his nice new $50,000.00 truck 40,000 miles without changing the oil. Just stopping regularly to "top it off".

In the real world these tests mean nothing because they are stupid and impractical, and are done purely as a sales gimmick. Also, much like the Sunday morning oil additive Infomercial, they NEVER do a side by side comparison. It is always their product, and their product alone in the test.

Doesn't anyone wonder why BCM and Rogers didn't run their "Filthy 14" side by side with a Daniel Defense, a Colt, or a Bushmaster? The reason is obvious. Any other AR-15 under the exact same conditions, being regularly soaked with the exact same amount of lubricant, would have performed the exact same way.

Just like when they drain the Duralube treated motor oil out of the engine, and run it for 20 minutes with a dry crankcase, they don't have an identical non Duralube treated engine running the exact same way. In all likelihood it would have ran just as long.

With so many manufacturers producing so many AR-15 style rifles, this is what it has come down to try and sell them. Just like Duralube, the shelves are full of like products, so they need to do something different to make theirs stand out. Both BCM and Duralube are thriving as a result, simply because people buy into the gimmick.
If you hate ARs and AR people so much, why do you have so many? Does Larry vickers not know what he's talking about? Lemme guess, anybody who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. we don't get to have our own opinion now, right? Just a bunch of fools falling for the marketing schtick.


Wait...I remember now...you're the "they're all the same" guy. The one who says there is no difference in quality hence, no need to pay for a "name"...yet you own all the LWRCI and Colt rifles.

So why are you digging up month old threads?

I think you've turned into a troll, personally.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:52 PM   #27
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If you hate ARs and AR people so much, why do you have so many?
Please show me with direct quotes where I have ever said in this forum, or any other for that matter, that I "hate AR-15's and AR-15 people"? Where have I ever said Larry Vickers, "does not know what he is talking about"? I quoted him as saying AR-15 rifles should be run wet with lubricant, which they should. The only one who appears to be "trolling" for an argument here is you. What I hate is misinformation based on opinion that has no factual basis. You can help me and others sort that out by posting factual information in the new AR-15 thread I started.

I own a total of 11 AR-15 rifles from 5 different manufacturers, as I have posted many times along with photos for proof. I have said they are all the same because they all contain completely interchangeable parts, (except for piston models), that all come from many of the same manufacturers. This stands to reason because there are more AR-15 manufacturers than there are manufacturers of the parts they contain. I, along with many, would like to know who buys what from whom. All of my weapons, regardless of brand or cost, all perform the exact same way. I'm very curious to know what brands you own, and what do you base your opinion on? You quoted my post on the "Filthy 14". If you wish to rebut anything I've said in it with factual information, I would like to hear it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:54 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billt

Please show me with direct quotes where I have ever said in this forum, or any other for that matter, that I "hate AR-15's and AR-15 people"? Where have I ever said Larry Vickers, "does not know what he is talking about"? I quoted him as saying AR-15 rifles should be run wet with lubricant, which they should. The only one who appears to be "trolling" for an argument here is you. What I hate is misinformation based on opinion that has no factual basis. You can help me and others sort that out by posting factual information in the new AR-15 thread I started.

I own a total of 11 AR-15 rifles from 5 different manufacturers, as I have posted many times along with photos for proof. I have said they are all the same because they all contain completely interchangeable parts, (except for piston models), that all come from many of the same manufacturers. This stands to reason because there are more AR-15 manufacturers than there are manufacturers of the parts they contain. I, along with many, would like to know who buys what from whom. All of my weapons, regardless of brand or cost, all perform the exact same way. I'm very curious to know what brands you own, and what do you base your opinion on? You quoted my post on the "Filthy 14". If you wish to rebut anything I've said in it with factual information, I would like to hear it.
You know, you're right. You haven't SPECIFICALLY stated you hate anybody. I guess I was basing my incorrect assumption on the fact that every thread I find you on lately, you are jumping ugly on AR guys. Not people who own them, but people whose "thing" is the AR platform. But, whatever....

I never claimed you stated vickers doesn't know what he's talking about. What I did do, was pose a direct question as to the thought behind your equating his (and others) knowledge level in regard to keeping them running, to that of the common housewife. I guess I'm still waiting for that answer.

You are very good at sniping at people, using innuendo, then because it wasn't a "direct quote" you spin it as though you've been misquoted. Just as you did in the example above.

You still have me confused as to why you jumped on a month old thread, spewing the same argument that has gotten at least one other thread closed by the mods. That sir, is the very definition of a troll.

My rifles....



image-2027257210.jpg



ArmaLite AR10A4C
LWRCI M6A2

I did my own research and chose ArmaLite over DPMS. It was more expensive. I guess that makes me an idiot.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:41 PM   #29
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You know, you're right. You haven't SPECIFICALLY stated you hate anybody. I guess I was basing my incorrect assumption on the fact that every thread I find you on lately, you are jumping ugly on AR guys.
Perhaps it is as much my fault. I should have stated the only 2 people I have been "jumping on" have been Quentin and mjkeet. The reason is because they provide answers to questions with nothing more than opinion. When I ask them for fact, they both continually turn around and reverse by asking me a question, instead of simply verifying their answers with fact, which they obviously cannot do. Once again, I have stated that all AR-15 rifles are the same, (DI models). I back that up by stating that all of them will function reliably with each others parts in them. This is because the AR-15 platform is one of the few that is based on the concept and practice of Interchangeable parts.

What we do not know is the quality of those parts, or where they come from. Without that information it is impossible to ascertain which one is "better", if in fact any of them are. They have yet to contribute any information what so ever to establish any fact in that regard. Just more opinion that causes more confusion. I should have stated you yourself did not contribute to that.

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I never claimed you stated vickers doesn't know what he's talking about. What I did do, was pose a direct question as to the thought behind your equating his (and others) knowledge level in regard to keeping them running, to that of the common housewife. I guess I'm still waiting for that answer.
Just think about it for a while. 20 odd years ago you read nothing about AR-15 rifles being run "dripping" with lubricant. Even today in harsh environments like Iraq troops use lubricant sparingly because it attracts fine sand and dirt that will cause stoppages, along with more problems than it will solve.

Now fast forward to today and it has been discovered, (successfully I might add), that in a range, and or training environment, it is advantageous to run the AR-15 platform "dripping" with lubricant. I agree with this and do it myself. I've found, as I've stated, the rifles clean up much easier after a high round count, because dirt and other crap that would have otherwise stuck to many of the parts, is simply blown out of the receiver through the ejection port. This will allow many more rounds to be fired before stoppages that would have occurred if the weapon had been run dry, or with very little lubricant. BCM has taken this concept to new heights with their whole "Filthy 14" Campaign. None of this is rocket science, hence my reference to housewives using cooking grease and oil in large amounts to accomplish much the same thing.

The problem is, (like the oil Infomercials I referred to), they don't compare their rifle to any of the other manufacturers in a side by side comparison. So what exactly does any of it prove? About all is that you can run an AR-15, any AR-15 longer without cleaning it if you keep it dripping with lubricant.

I'm not seeing anything that I've said in my post about the "Filthy 14" as innuendo, other than the whole concept Rogers and BCM are trying to put forth is the innuendo that their rifle will perform under the conditions they themselves created, when others won't. The whole concept of what they did would have been somewhat useful if they had used other makes of similar AR-15's in a direct side be side test. They chose not to. Because of that I, or anyone else for that matter, don't know if their rifle is any better because of this test, than any other make would be if run under the same exact conditions.

That is the way it is in most all of these AR-15 "which model is better" threads. I didn't pay any attention to the date on this thread. I answered it because this is the Ruger Mini 14 forum. I own and shoot several of those as well. I did not call you, or make any reference to you being an "idiot". If you wish refer to yourself as one, that I have no control over.

These are my Ruger Mini 14's that I own and shoot. Which is why I am on this forum and thread to begin with.



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Old 02-21-2012, 02:59 PM   #30
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Ain't there about enough BS here. Enough

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